Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:08 I'm Latasha Russo, executive director of Sapelo Square. And welcome to On the Square, a special podcast brought to you by Sapelo Square in collaboration with the Mayan, where every month Sapelo Squad get on the square and into some real talk about race and Islam in the Americas.
Speaker 2 00:00:31 Greetings of Peace. I am Ada Aaliyah Rashid special projects lead for Sapelo Square. I'm also the curator and executive producer of Preserving the Legacy portraits and stories capturing Black Muslim Life, which is a collaborative project between Solo Square and world renowned photographers and filmmakers, Raj and B Walker Paper Monday. If you haven't checked out the online exhibition, please head over to preserving the legacy.online to see some of the portraits and to listen and read some of the statements from participants we've highlighted so far. Within this episode, B Walker and I have a conversation. We talk about the original intentions behind Preserving the Legacy Bee shares a specific experience. It happened when I invited her and Raj to attend Juma Prayer at Masha Khalifa in Brooklyn, New York. In addition to bee sharing some specifics about her creative process with Raj and how they're able to balance paying their bills while simultaneously honoring their main intentions of their creative studio and visual research Project Paper Monday, it truly has been a privilege and honor to work with both Raj and B Walker over the last seven years. And in between time there have been births and there also have been deaths. For those of the participants that are no longer with us, we recite Al Fatia for them. And for those of you joining us today, we begin with Rahim.
Speaker 2 00:01:57 Today is Thursday, February 9th, 2023. It's really weird to say that out loud. And I am Aita Aaliyah Rashid, and I'm with B Walker. B. Do you wanna just introduce yourself?
Speaker 3 00:02:11 Hi, I'm B Walker. I'm photographer and filmmaker and one half of April Monday, which is a creative studio based in New York, which I run with my husband, rod Walker.
Speaker 2 00:02:23 B I wanted us to kind of go back to the beginning of when we first connected and I actually went back through my emails just to see if I could find the first correspondence between us. And it was Friday, April 15th, 2016, <laugh> at 2:19 PM I found this email that I sent to you about going onto your website and I was moved to tears after viewing your video about meeting Raj. And I thanked you for sharing your love and light with the world and exuding pure joy. And I mentioned that I was gonna be in New York and I was trying to get some professional photos for a documentary project that I was working on. And I just left my name in my contact and you responded with a, I'm so sorry, we're gonna be on the West Coast while you're gonna be on the East coast. I think you're actually gonna be in Oakland or something. And so we didn't connect right away, but then I reached out again about this grant opportunity through the Magnum Foundation. So I'm curious to know like kind of what your experience was like when I you first received those, those initial emails from me.
Speaker 3 00:03:39 I can't believe that that was such a long time ago. I really don't remember the very first emails, but I do remember that time because Roger and I were working for this creative tech company that had offices in New York but was based in Oakland. And so we would do like a yearly all hands meeting. So I think it was that time that you were gonna be in New York and we were actually gonna end up being in Oakland where it's gonna like switch locations for a second. And so we weren't able to meet up with you at that point. But I more so remember when we started working on the Magnum Foundation grant because when I first started working with Raj, I was actually a writer and he would mainly be taking the photographs and I would be writing and doing like creative development and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 00:04:17 And then I went through a long period of time where I was mainly taking photographs. But when you approached us for the Magnum Foundation project, it was a lot of writing. I mean it was, it was a written proposal. So I actually had so much fun putting that together. And you know, I felt like I was like reading and researching and writing again, I was sort of bummed that it didn't come to fruition and that we didn't get the grant. But I'm really glad that we decided to do it independently. And I have to credit Rod with that because he's always had that ethos of like, let's figure out how we can make it happen independently and how we can just do the work because it, it deserves to be done and it's gonna be an interesting project, so let's figure out how to just make it ourselves. And uh, I feel like that was the beginning of what now is a seven year long relationship then project and <laugh>. Yeah, it's been great.
Speaker 2 00:05:08 <laugh>. Yeah, it, I'm really grateful for Raj for having that spirit and, and moving forward regardless. And to be honest, I was really surprised. I think it was just because I, I didn't realize and understand how the type of work that you both were doing, like commercially and also like working with individuals who had higher profiles and things like that. Like I didn't really understand to the extent. And then I remember as we started working together and Raj was like, yeah, I'm gonna be in LA and I'm gonna be doing this. And I was like, oh, okay. And so then I started putting like all these puzzle pieces together and recognize like realizing just yeah, that you were balancing between doing commercial work or doing work with maybe higher profile clients, but then still making time for this. And it just, I was just so grateful and I just felt like it was such a divine gift.
Speaker 2 00:06:10 Like I really felt like I was just, I don't know, I was grateful because it's just something that, again, it's, there is a lot of emphasis on people, um, making money and like not wasting time. And if there isn't resources at the table for certain things, then it's just not gonna happen, you know? And so I was just really blown away by the generosity and the level of patience that you both were extending, knowing we didn't really have much to offer for this project, knowing that there was a limited budget, but somehow we made it work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it kind of goes against my own personal philosophy around paying people for their time because I do want to make sure, and I, and I think that's something I've had to reflect on myself of the whole project, not recognizing and learning from mistakes. Cuz I feel like I've made a lot <laugh> throughout this process.
Speaker 2 00:07:05 But learning and understanding like how to find a way to balance both, you know, making a strong intention to have the resources and to make sure people are compensated for their time, but also figuring out how to maintain the type of balance where you still move forward and you push forward regardless of if there are people who wanna support your work or not. You just find, you know, you find the way and so I'm just trying to learn. But I appreciate you both presenting a model or some type of way of how to, how to do it, you know? And it's not always a smooth, easy thing, but if you have a strong intention somehow some way things miraculously come together, you know?
Speaker 3 00:07:44 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:46 When we first connected, I wanted to just kind of make sure that you guys knew a little bit about Islam in America, about certain terminologies. Like I sent you p d F files, like I was trying to do everything that I could to, to welcome you into this <laugh> communal experience. And as you've learned, our community is not a monolithic cultural group. Like there's different ways, different expressions of being a Muslim living in America, especially coming from the African diaspora. And I extended invitation for you guys to go to a MASH in Brooklyn, New York, Masha Khalifa. And I just wanted to ask you about your thoughts and reflections on that invitation to go to Brooklyn for Juma, like Friday prayer service, what that was like for you?
Speaker 3 00:08:38 Oh my gosh, going to Master Khalifa in Brooklyn was such an interesting experience. It was amazing. It's funny to even hear you talk about that time because of course the world has changed so much since then. Even just imagining and remembering just feels so strange cuz I, I just can't even, I don't know, it's, it just feels like such a long time ago, but it was so wonderful. And my family's from Kenya and my, my dad is Indian and my mother is African from Kenya and there are a lot of obviously Muslim Indians and there's a lot of like Arabic and Middle Eastern influence in Kenya. So I've had touchpoints throughout my whole life with Islam in some sense or another. But that said, not a very strong connection to the history of black Muslims in America. So for that, that was a, let's say like an open space in my understanding.
Speaker 3 00:09:30 Like I didn't know anything about that experience. So the things that you sent us and the things that we read and looked at were so helpful and so interesting in terms of understanding the history and understanding the different perspectives that people have. That was great to like to read and absorb, but going to Machi was just such a visceral experience. And the one thing that really sticks with me is that what we decided to do was I decided to cover my hair like before we got there because I thought it would be strange for whatever reason, I think I was overthinking it, but <laugh>, I thought it would be strange to like park outside of Mahoud and then cover my head and go inside. So <laugh>, I, I covered my head before I left the house and then we drove to Brooklyn and at that time we lived like about 45 minutes away, so it was like a solid drive.
Speaker 3 00:10:21 Um, and then we parked and went and I just recall feeling such a different experience of myself as a woman or as just as a person in the city being covered. I, I just can't even pinpoint what exactly the feeling was, but just that it was so, it was so specifically different. Um, and I was so much more aware of myself in another way than I had ever really been in the past. I don't know, I felt also once I got there I felt this really interesting unity with the other women who were praying and I'd almost felt like, okay, it didn't really matter where I was coming from or what my perspective was, but like in that moment we were all together and like united in this, in this prayer and like a spiritual moment in an exploration of like knowledge beyond ourselves, which I thought was such a beautiful feeling.
Speaker 3 00:11:18 And then also beyond that like, I mean people were just so welcoming and I loved just the experience of the community there. People were so open to us. I think you had connected us with someone there and they introduced us to a few people so we had like some really nice chats with people in the community there afterwards. And all in all, it was just a really like grounding experience for me. It was like really nice to spend that time in the community and it was a great opportunity to like, to be introduced to the, how do I say, like the culture of the communities that we'd be interacting with. Like as time went on, you know, and when we went to LA and then when we went to Atlanta, you know, it was nice to have that sense of like, well this is what a typical Friday would be like. And understanding that as being part of the lives of the people who are sitting for us, I think really helped me just connect on another level.
Speaker 2 00:12:09 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thank you. And also <laugh>, I am curious to know, I do remember us having a conversation about faith and we haven't talked about it much and it hasn't really come up throughout the project, but I believe that you and Raj have your own religious identity or spiritual practice that you observe and how that's maybe shown up for you throughout creating and working on this project.
Speaker 3 00:12:41 I think, uh, over the course of this project specifically, we've both changed so much. Um, I can't really speak for Raj, but I will say that like broadly meditation and prayer submission and being open are all definitely part of creative practice and as also part of religious practice. Um, so those things definitely have like overlapped worked together. So in that sense, I would say, although the specifics of that may have changed, that have changed like over all this these years, like those are the things that I think are, are sort of like shared between both like faith and, and creativity. You know, they have that, those things in common.
Speaker 2 00:13:24 You know, one of the things that I was talking to, to a few folks about La Squad this struggle or this challenge to, to get people on board to support independent projects, understand the value of, of the type of work that we're striving to create. Which for, for Paper Monday, I know that there's a strong intention of wanting to share stories, but doing so in a way that's making sure that a diverse array of stories are being told versus just one type of story that we continuously kind of see in the world. And wanting there to be other perspectives or other voices that you're highlighting or showcasing, particularly those from the African diaspora. And you know, I somehow in some way, and I don't know how you guys na have navigated over the years continuing to push through with this idea, we're just gonna create something.
Speaker 2 00:14:20 We're just gonna do something. We're not gonna worry about where the resources will come. We'll just create and then things will start to come. How have you been able to, I guess, pursue your creative efforts and also maintain a balance with just making sure you guys are, you know, properly just taking care of yourselves and now you also have a child and so you're providing not just for yourselves anymore, but a child is involved. So I, I guess I'm trying to talk about money <laugh> and finances and like surviving and being able to create at a high level where you're able to feed yourselves, you know, but also stay true to your own philosophy around being creatives and creating regardless of whether or not you have the support from other entities or like people who see value in what you're trying to do. You still trying to like maintain the balance? Like how have you been able to do that?
Speaker 3 00:15:22 Yeah, okay. Um, well I can approach this from two different perspectives. When it comes to the work itself, whatever we're actually producing, we will produce at the same level for anybody regardless of the budget. If we say yes to a project, it's because we believe in it, we care about it or we wanna do it. And um, so the work is gonna be the same regardless. We're definitely gonna keep our process the same, our production the same and our like high level output, a hundred percent the same. Um, but when it comes to a balance of like finances, we have a very successful commercial career, um, where we're able to bill at full day rates, commercial day rates, and produce our work for larger brands and companies that have the ability to support a, a larger budget. Um, but when it comes to working with nonprofits or institutions and organizations, we definitely make the work itself the priority and, and not the resources or the finances.
Speaker 3 00:16:22 Cuz for us we know that that organization's income or their, whatever revenue they're generating is going towards their mission. And so we don't need that for our day rate. We would much prefer to be in alignment with what they're deciding to do. We are happy to take like reduced fees or do it differently, figure out how we can make the project happen. Because for us, the social justice element or the public interest element is the most important part. And the most interesting part for us, the organizations that we work with, we believe in what they're doing or we believe in their project that they wanna make. And so for us, we just try to figure out how we can be in alignment to make that happen. Um, if that means we spread it out over time, like in the case with Solo Square and, and with the Preserving the Legacy project, um, we just spread it out over time.
Speaker 3 00:17:10 You know, it's not like we did the whole thing in a month, we did it over the course of now seven years. We spread it out and we were able to make it happen and we are really proud of the work that we are able to produce. Um, so that's usually how we'll go about doing it. We just are open to the idea, to the concept to the people that we're working with and to the mission of that organization. And then, um, we just see how we can, how we can, um, meet in a way that's gonna make the best work for all involved.
Speaker 2 00:17:38 Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate hearing, hearing that because as a creative as well, it's been a difficult journey navigating, figuring out how to hold onto certain values and certain philosophies that I have within me as it relates to creating and wanting to, it could sound corny, but make art that matters or make art that allows people to have an experience that's counter to maybe what everyone already sees or hears. But to do something that's different and to center the stories of the community in which I come from, it's always been diff like a difficult thing for me to navigate and to figure out. And it's been empowering to see how you both work and to bear witness to your process just as something that is a possibility for myself, you know? So I'm really grateful that I've been able to bear witness to just your process and, and just the way you guys have been, the way you've done things.
Speaker 2 00:18:44 I mean I've, I don't think I've ever worked with anyone just so intentional, very just kind, very patient. I've never felt any like frustration or discomfort from you even through an email <laugh>. It's always just been pure sincerity and presence. Uh, and I really wanna thank you both for, for that because I know that it hasn't been easy. We were in the midst of a life-changing event that several life-changing events that took have taken place. I I um, my husband that we had our first child back on the end of 2017 and then there was a lot of death as well that year for us. And then, um, moving across the world and then the coronavirus and all of these major life-changing shifts occurring in the midst of us still wanting to have like, hold onto this intention of sharing these stories and these, these sharing the portraits and the stories and not letting go of it. And just, I really, really appreciate how you guys just held on and continued to stay in touch despite all of the various struggles. And then you guys have also had <laugh> a lot of changes moving to different space. You ha you know, you guys had a child as well. And so there are these big life moments that have happened in between time and we still are here together connected through this, this project and it's just been really beautiful to bear witness to it all.
Speaker 3 00:20:23 Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, it's, it has been a really great process. I'm gonna go back a little bit to something you said earlier where you were saying that it might sound corny, but you wanna make work that matters. And I think that's absolutely a hundred percent like not corny at all cuz I think as just like a human motivation and desire is to reach other people and to reach other people with something impactful. So I think that's a lot, it's a very common struggle when it comes to creativity because the beginnings of create creative work are usually kind of like lonely or individual. Let's say a person decides like this is something they like to do, either like painting, drawings, sculpting, taking photographs, you know, making films, something they like to do individually or something that comes from inside themselves. But then at some point that perspective does sort of, I guess dwindle out and there's a desire to make more important work.
Speaker 3 00:21:16 Like, I'll tell you a story. I was photographing for a very many years before I decided to take a trip with my mom to Italy, right? So my mom's always wanted to go to Italy, so we took her on like a three city tour for her 60th birthday. And I was so excited to go and be there and like for me, as much as we photograph in the city and we photograph in our studio, travel is really the, the heart of how I, how and when and why I like to photograph. So I was really, really excited to be in Italy and I remember I borrowed, well not borrowed, but I took one of our studio cameras with me on the trip and I was just photographing everything and I was so excited about it. And then I had this strange moment, I think we were in Venice and we were on one of the little bridges, of course there were tons of canals and then tons of bridges.
Speaker 3 00:22:03 We were standing on one of the bridges and I'm gonna go take a picture of I don't know what, but there're swarms of people all around me with selfie sticks. And when I say swarms, I mean like hundreds of people, anybody who's been to tourist Italy have seen this. But at a certain point in time it's seen this like selfie sticks everywhere. Like I, you can't even take a picture of yourself without someone else's selfie stick being somewhere in it. So I don't even know what these photographs were that people were taking <laugh>, you know, it was unreal. I've never seen anything like it. All of a sudden I just like faltered like the, the camera, the moment, everything just sort of failed in that moment because I thought I'm gonna take this picture of Venice, right? And at that time, of course I'm taking pictures for myself and everything, but part of it is also like I'm gonna put it on the internet.
Speaker 3 00:22:56 You know? So I was really excited like about all these great photographs I was gonna have to be able to share later. And in that moment I just realized like every single person who I think might look at this photograph on their phone has that photograph already. Like they're all already here, everyone's here taking their own photograph of this to share for themselves. But like they have that photograph, you know, or, or any photograph that someone would want, they could even Google of it. Like any photograph that I might take here that's just a document. Like someone could Google that very canal in Venice and find a photo of it, find many photos of it, you know? And that really, really threw me, it was a huge wrench in my creative process for a long time because I couldn't figure out like how to get around the fact that I felt nobody needed my pictures.
Speaker 3 00:23:51 You know, it was like nobody needs me to do this cuz either they can do it themselves or they can just go on the internet and find it, you know? And it didn't really matter that it was my photograph or with the certain camera that I took it with. Like it didn't really really matter fundamentally. And that was a really tough place to get to, honestly. It sounds simple, but it really threw me and it was really, really tough for a long time until I realized that that's, that was that same desire that you're talking about, which is like, I wanted the work to matter, that it wasn't just that it could be beautiful or that it could be an interesting place or you know, it could be like a document of my travels or a really beautiful moment. It had to like matter to somebody else, like for it to matter to me.
Speaker 3 00:24:35 And that's, that's kind of what took me a long time to get there to realize like, I want it to matter to someone else, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I want someone else to feel something and to get an experience from this. And so now I need to figure out how to put that into my work because it wasn't there before. <laugh>, I guess full circle, it's like the social justice work that we do and that we like the people we've been able to collaborate with when it comes to, like you're saying, telling stories that aren't always out there or telling stories that don't get told mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's what's really like imbued meaning and, and like value into the work for me. And then I feel like not, I feel like, I mean I see the impact that it has on other people and I love it cuz it's, it's bigger than me or my family or my travels. Every time we hear stories of people saying, you know, they have been photographed in a way that either gives them a feeling of like dignity of like value and worth of beauty, of being seen. All of those things like that means so much to me. Cause I know that's a really real experience that that person is having. Um, and we get to be part of it.
Speaker 2 00:25:40 Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. It's, it was really beautiful to hear you talk about that moment and that struggle and, and just learning, like figuring out how to overcome that experience to keep going and to not allow that to debilitate you from being able to continue to create and to see that you do have a unique perspective to offer to the world and to, to share that despite maybe the the struggle that you are having of, of just, is it, does it matter? Does anyone care? Because I think I have dealt with that a lot since I was a kid. <laugh>, I think I've always struggled with this idea of like, does anyone really care about what I think and how I see the world and being such a quiet person when I'm with people that I love and know I'm, you know, I can talk, I can exchange, but I've always been someone that just observes a lot more than just being a loud person.
Speaker 2 00:26:37 Like being able to speak up so my voice is heard. It's always been more on the quiet end and especially after like, just heartbreak and just dealing with life and trying to navigate being in the body that I have and having the experiences that I've had. I've, I've, I have struggled with deciding and like choosing to say, okay, I'm gonna keep going with this cuz there's something within me that I feel like I do need to tell a story. I do have something to offer and to push forward despite. And I think it's a, it's a beautiful thing when you can meet other people who share that same perspective and the same kind of value. Just the idea of supporting someone else on their journey. It's such a gift and I don't take it for granted. And it's, um, and I just, again, I wanna say thank you <laugh>, thank you to you and Raj for just how you have kind of held up a mirror and like kept reminding me like, yes, keep going.
Speaker 2 00:27:32 Don't, we're gonna keep, we're gonna do this, we're gonna get through this, we're gonna get this finished, you know, we're going to get through this process. And just always continuing to push on despite all of the various things that have happened and doing so with such patience and such grace, you know, and just presence. I, I have felt that from both of you. So I just, again wanna thank you for, for your, for the love. It's really love, you know, it's a way <laugh> love that they say is a verb and the way that we love and we express love. We may not say I love you. I've never said be, I love you <laugh>, but I feel the love from you because of your actions and how you've shown me love through your actions. And that part has been, I think one of the most profound experiences of this whole project and this collaboration is, is how we show love to each other without actually saying, I love you or saying this is love. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3 00:28:31 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. I think, or I feel like life is so funny sometimes it's like, um, I don't know, I don't know. I'm little, I'm actually about speechless and I, I really do appreciate you sharing that and um, thank you for saying that. I think there can be a disconnect sometimes between like, oh, lemme speak for myself, like who I feel myself to be or imaginary experience myself to be. And then the, the experience that people have when they're around me, you know? And so I try as much as I can to like favor the higher, the higher perspective, so to speak, <laugh>. So I think, um, it feels really good to hear that and I'm so glad that that's been your experience because those are the things that remain, you know, after time
Speaker 2 00:29:24 Be, I'm really grateful that we had an opportunity to just exchange and share and this was really heartwarming to <laugh> to speak with you and just to hear your perspective about this experience and, and just making time to just reflect on all of this. And I'm, I'm hoping that I'll be able to see you again one day to properly give you some flowers, literally <laugh> del have some flowers in hand to deliver to you, to really thank you and embrace you for just, again, the love that you've shared and just all the support over these years. I really just, I'm forever grateful and it's, it's like one of these life-changing events, you know, that you'll never forget, <laugh> that I'll never forget. But it's definitely, you guys have a special imprint on my heart and I'm forever grateful for it. So thank you again.
Speaker 3 00:30:17 Thank you so much, Ida. It's been really like, just, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much for having us, for approaching us from the beginning to do this. I'm so glad that over all these years we were able to make it happen and that now people are gonna get to see the work and, um, get to know a bit more about their broader community or a community that they don't know about. So we're, we're so happy that we were able to be part of it and so happy that we met you along the way. It's been great.
Speaker 2 00:30:44 Thank you b I appreciate it. And please extend the greetings to Raj. I'm just, again, I'm really grateful for, for everything that you all have been able to, to do to get us where we are today.
Speaker 3 00:30:58 Thank you so much. Sounds so good. And I hope we see you soon.
Speaker 2 00:31:01 All right, take care. Peace.
Speaker 0 00:31:04 Bye.
Speaker 2 00:31:06 Thank you for listening to this episode today. There have been hundreds and thousands of volunteer hours that have gone into making SAP Square what it is today. And so I just want to humbly ask if you have benefited from anything that we've produced and created and shared on our platform, please go to our website, click that donate button and give a few dollars if you can today. Just wanna give a quick shout out to our generous supporters for preserving the legacy, Abdul Raim, Kamani <unk>, camp Kil, MUA Sadique, and Samaya Austin. Sadiq Ali, last year to war theme in Oakland, California, SMA Abdul, and our launch good supporters. Thank you so much and please keep us in your good opinion in prayers.
