On Freedom and Self-Determination

Speaker 0 00:00:06 Welcome to on the square. A special podcast brought to you by SAP Willow square in collaboration with the may debt. I am Dr. <inaudible> senior editor of SAP, a little square and curator producer of this podcast, where every month we get on the square and into some real talk about race at a slam. And the Americas August is an important month in black freedom struggles in the Americas. The legacy of gas, far younger, who established one of the first communities of the rooms in 1570. And what is now that our cruise Mexico is commemorated in August. It's like Africans arrive in the first permanent English settlement in north America in August 16, 19, the start of the Haitian revolution, August, 1791, Gabriel process rebellion August, 1800 Nat Turner's rebellion, August, 1831. The March on Washington, August, 1963. August is also the birthday month of the honorable was I am Marcus Garvey and chairman Fred Hampton, and an August of 1979 began the commemoration of what many call black August I practice the resistance started by freedom fighters incarcerated in us prisons and continues the principles of black August, which are study fast train fight. Speaker 0 00:01:45 And the principle of fast thing stems from the holy month of Ramadan. And I'm in a black August. On this episode, we look at freedom and self-determination with community activists, playwright, and the freedom fighter she had up to meet his is a name you might not have heard before, but you should because he has been fighting for our freedom and self-determination for over 50 years. And she had joined the black Panther party at 16 and eventually went underground at the ranks of the black liberation army. He was a domestic political prisoner who served 23 years of his life in prison for his involvement in the black liberation movement. He is currently the chairperson for Jericho, a Vanguard organization that supports domestic political prisoners, prisoners of war and calls for their freedom and amnesty from prison. He presently lives in Richmond, Virginia with his family and works as a community case manager at a free health clinic and gives HIV STI workshops in schools and prisons and supports HIV positive inmates upon their release of brother G had, has written, directed and produced dozens of children and adult plays for spiritual, social and political awareness, motivation and upliftment. Speaker 0 00:03:09 He and his wife on their own community theater company for our children. Um, greetings everyone listening. I am so excited. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. Now. I'm joining in today from the ancestral territory of the Asha Novick and Wyandotte, and I'm joined by the esteemed brother. She had Abdul who meet brothers. She had, how are you, Speaker 1 00:03:45 Uh, home doodler sister. I'm doing good. I feel a lot more like them. Well, Speaker 0 00:03:49 Like on my slob, you know, it is some crazy times that we're living in. Although I guess we've always been living crazy times since we got to the Americas in particularly as African descendant people. But one of the things that these times that made me think about or questions of freedom and self-determination, and when I thought about doing the podcast and having an episode on this topic, I thought you would be a great person, right. To talk to about these issues. And so to begin, I want us to start with a little bit of your history. So you are a member of the black Panther party and the black liberation army. And so you played a direct role in the black freedom struggles of the 1960s and seventies. So can you tell us a little bit about those organizations and what compelled you then to join those organizations and to struggle for freedom? Speaker 1 00:04:40 Yes, <inaudible> um, yeah, I joined the black Panther party when I was 16 years old. Uh I'm from New Jersey. I live in Richmond, Virginia now, but I'm from New Jersey. And, uh, uh, so when I was 16, that would probably put it right around 1970 or so. And so the black Panther party was established for four years, by that time in October, 1966. And I think it was just, you know, every summer for those of that age, or maybe just aware of that history is that, um, every summer there were a lot of rebellions in the streets and, you know, um, the Watts riots, they say riots, I don't, but just for people to connect Watts rise in Newark, New Jersey had the big, um, we've been going on all across the country. Um, so playing field was actually no different in, we used to sit on the, on the roof of my house, you know, and just watch fires, burn, you know, miles away, downtown. Speaker 1 00:05:40 And all these images of police brutality was very, um, rampant. You know, we think that, you know, with the cell phones now we see more, but actually it was still happening. It was happening then also, and we were aware of it then too. All right. So then along with that was the, of the strong sisters and brothers and black man, the Tams. And so that resonated with me. And then there was one particular incident where my brother and father, and both who passed away now, oh. And I were driving in a car with him and we were pulled over by the police. I don't know what it was for no turning signal, light out or whatever. And they made us sit on the curb, typical self-confidence, you know, south central and, um, put a gun to my dad's head. Don't even know the reason why I was so scared and I didn't know what to do scared because he might get killed and scared. Speaker 1 00:06:33 It scared it was a scary situation. So at that was that thing that the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of me joining the path to party and to do something about it. I mean, it's a lot to go into that, but that's basically the impetus of me joining. I think I was upset with myself for being scared too. It's a weird thing to say, and I didn't want to be scared, so I wanted to not be scared. So I joined an organization to help me not be scared by doing something about it. If you can kind of put that in some type of context like that. So we had in playing for, we had X, we have big, big black Panther party chapter. There was other chapters to Jersey city and Atlantic city and all these places. But, uh, you know, we had a free breakfast program. Speaker 1 00:07:20 We built a health clinic from the ground up and I, that was in south Plainfield. And just the focus, there was a sickle cell anemia and a poetically. I work at a health free health clinic. Now, today has a paid, uh, senior case manager to focus there's HIV for myself, um, dealing with, uh, prisoners coming out that are HIV positive and dealing with their medical needs and their reentry needs. So yeah, we public, uh, political education classes selling the black Panther party paper, which I love to do beyond the street, interacting with people, running my mouth, you know, shooting the stuff, you know? And, um, I, I think selling the path that paper was the highlight of every day for me and the black Panther party, you know, I eventually got convicted for two bank. Expropriations we say, expropriation, you'll say robberies, but we was trying to really build finances for, um, the movement to freedom land down south, uh, that would be Georgia and South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana. Speaker 1 00:08:25 And, you know, you can get that through bake sales. So we viewed ourselves at war with the government and that's what, and these were government institutions, you know, as that's how we viewed it. That's why we weren't doing that with supermarkets and stores and things of that nature, you know, anyway, making. Okay. So on, I know when I went for one of my arrangements, they had two lovely white ladies there that came in, I guess they were the bank, they were the bank tellers and I was the only black person in court. And I purposely braided half my handball ball hit it now, but they can't see me. But, um, and, uh, um, purposely braided one side of my head or crazy and wild didn't stand up for the judge, everything I could possibly do to disrespect this guy. Um, don't recommend that for anybody going to court by the way. Speaker 1 00:09:16 And how old were you at this point? I think, well, it must have been 20 at this time, uh, with these convinced. So, um, there, so they, you know, that I'm the only black person, of course, when, when the prosecutor asked, do you recognize the person robbed the bank? You know, each one of them individually and separately in the court, you know, separately, uh, brought in, you know, they, they said they didn't recognize me. And one of them winked at me now, I only tell that story. And I've told it a lot of times, it's I cannot say why, because I haven't taught, ever talked to these ladies. They didn't feel threatened by me that smile and wink is not an indication of being threatened or intimidated. Of course. And I can only surmise that in there. A lot of those best that they probably was because people just generally supported the movements back then they may not have been on that extreme, uh, end of the, of, of what's going down. But people generally like say, okay, right on. I understand. Yeah. I'm not gonna near you, you know, to the crosses, you know? And so these women must have been of that attitude. And, uh, so I still got convicted though. Speaker 0 00:10:27 So you did this expropriation when you were part of the black liberation army, can you tell us what is the black liberation army and how did you get involved with the organization? All right. Um, Speaker 1 00:10:45 Well the black liberation army, I, you know, it depends on who you ask. And when I explain how I see how it started, you understand why I say it like that depends on who you ask, because it wasn't something that, uh, any group of people sat down to say, we're going to start a organization, underground organization, the bla black liberation army. I think it was the thing that, um, people started responding to the injustice of police violence. If you know what I'm saying, you know, to eye for an eye, you know, you do that. We're going to do that because, uh, position was, you can, uh, if we can not walk down the streets in safety and peace, then neither can you, and neither will you for that matter. And so, you know, we had different crews, I went underground doing the things with the banks and stuff like that. Speaker 1 00:11:37 But, um, and then I think it kind of jailed. So people started when they did an action, they would say black justice or something like that to indicate that this was a, an intentional act and for the black liberation movement as such. Uh, and then I think it was when we were getting in pre incarcerated captured and say, oh, you're from New York. Oh, you're the ones that, oh, you're Jersey, California and making these connections. And, and plus being a lot of us knew each other, even though we didn't know we were underground because it was nobody else's business except your own cruise business, you know, but when we were, was in prison, you know, we seem to develop what we've developed, knowing who we were and what you were doing. Cause now the cat's out the bag. Oh, you did the New York movie. Oh yeah, you did the one in Ohio. Speaker 1 00:12:27 And so, and so somehow another black liberation army named resonated and came out and then we started building around that principles of unity and things of that nature that is you had to do more meets. That is my take on how it started. Nobody said, we're going to start this. It was the jelling and coming together a formations and crews getting to know each other, but everybody in their crews, putting in work in different places. And two, it became evident that this is an underground thing going on and we are the black liberation army. And I was so phenomenally proud to be a part of that. Uh, and in Lewisburg while I was in the federal system, Lewisburg federal penitentiary in Leavenworth, federal penitentiary were the main institutions that I was in, uh, did 23 years altogether. And, uh, we had, and I know in the seventies, a very big black liberation, army collective there and work out studying and fasting. And, and somewhere along that line, I became Muslim. Speaker 0 00:13:32 I used to teach, um, intro to African-American studies at Purdue university when I started at Purdue. Yeah. When I first got my PhD and I, you know, as my first job and I was, when I would talk to you about that, I would teach you about the civil rights era of black power movements. I would teach about the black men of the party and all of the kids have really negative. And I was surprised, you know, because growing up the way I grew up, where I come from, like, I was really surprised. It was very, they were like at Malcolm X, too, like these were negative violent people. Like this is how they, this is what they understood them to be. And so, you know, part of my job as an educator was to sort of help them understand, yes, we understand who these groups were. Right. And part of that's abroad terms, right. How you understand what people are doing. Right. And that comes from your context. And so, you know, I want to ask you about, if you can define what freedom and self determination mean to you and also the importance of right. Naming things, right. Maybe differently in order to understand why someone is doing something Speaker 1 00:14:36 Freedom, um, is, uh, freedom is, is, is the ability to be, uh, to live in peace, to be able to freedom. And self-determination go hand in hand, you know, freedom to be, to, uh, develop design and contribute to and expired. You reach your own aspirations, uh, on hindered, um, provided of course that they don't impede and disrespect and encroach on another person's right. Freedom is the right to life and a healthy and wholesome existence to be able to provide for yourself and your family and your community to feel a sense of protection they're in and to grow on the develop to be able to pursue education. Um, all these things connected will self-determination is the ability for people of them within themselves, to be able to do that for themselves, with being, without being able to, without being dictated to by an outside force, particularly an outside force. Speaker 1 00:15:36 That means them no. Well, except to exploiting, extrapolate their wealth and their talents for the design of that. And I will use the word colonizing power if you will. You know, cause a lot of times we view ourselves as being colonized here, uh, by, you know, um, uh, right. Uh, white supremacy superstructure. And it has been such is more clearly understood when you start at the beginning with the, um, the, um, uh, the slave trade and slavery here. And in so many ways, when you look at the economic and financial and social and political conditions of people, of African decent, a lot of that has not changed even though it has, you can't see what he is, can't see him, but I'm raising my hands. That quality of life has, uh, proportionately improve with the advancement of society and technology. True that everybody, even a poor homeless person may have a cell phone, you know, so everybody may be able to find themselves in an air conditioned room, Roman their toilet in their dilapidated house does in fact flush and you turn on the spicket and you can get water out of that. Speaker 1 00:16:46 So you don't have to go and deprecate in the street and you have a sewage system that everybody can benefit from. So in that sense, because this is a superpower, this is a highly industrialized, technically technology, advanced country, we've all have benefited, benefited, even the ones of us. And there's many of us on the bottom, bottom, bottom bottom of the totem pole have kind of like your life is kind of like, um, improve proportionally a little bit with that. Um, if you can understand what I'm saying, but the more things change, the more they remain, the same system, uh, systematically systemically, uh, the condition between rich and poor, uh, and the way superstructure and people of African descent remains pretty much the same. Um, it's been even out of the victories that we can claim with people in different positions. I know Malcolm said that, you know, we don't have no black ass knots now we do. Speaker 1 00:17:42 So all those things can or signs that, um, of the contradictions and complexities of, but the fact of the matter systemically remains the same, the system is the same in spite of the fact that we can point to, um, uh, African people of African descent in different areas and accentuating and, and excelling, which is wonderful. I mean, this is just a, it's not just a uniform, this, that one too is very complex, but like I said, not to be redundant, not to be redundant. It's just a systemically new grip of powers in the hands of a few. And that few is, is by the managerial class of the middle-class manages that system and to make sure it stays intact and we're there in that position and doesn't look like it is changing in spite of our individual successes and those successes. And I'm gonna shut up in a minute, usually linked with, um, supporting and bus. Speaker 1 00:18:38 Buttressing the, superclass the super, the status quo, not necessarily helping us as an hour and now, and now play. And as a salute, all of the individuals that have financially economically made it to another level that do reach back and help, but in their individual capacity. So I definitely acknowledged and salute all of the work that just go out and now, you know, um, LeBron James, you know, basketball, basketball, and, and, uh, Kyrie Irving and people like that, if they're reaching out to their communities to, to, uh, to help. So I salute their individual efforts, but I'm just talking about systemically across the board, how that doesn't resonate to bring about the change that we really need. You reminded me, Speaker 0 00:19:24 You reminded me just like Barack Obama, like in a sense of, does he accept the exception, making the rule? You know, so, you know, we, we get you the black president. Right. But that actually does it, it's a sign of like, what is not possible really for everybody else. You know what I mean? Like, as opposed to, you know what I mean, the break, the rule, it makes the rule in that sense. Right. And there's a very in the system. Speaker 1 00:19:56 No, it doesn't make the rule. It breaks the rule break, the rule doesn't break. So, yeah. And, and, and, and then, you know, there's pros and cons with that too, because obviously with the black president, that's very inspiring to, to every last black person in the country in terms of just seeing that face. So this is the pro side of it. Okay. If there is, if I can make these distinctions, like there's the same way, Kamala Harris, a black woman. So how empowering that is for every, every sister in the United States to see that, you know, the downside is that, um, it kind of legitimizes an oppressive system, um, in a way, if I, um, made us be saying that as clear as I can. Speaker 0 00:20:39 I think, I think that was really good. Speaker 1 00:20:41 My daughter is looking at Kamala Harris and, and everybody is like, oh man, feeling it. When Obama looked at the name, Barack Hussein, Obama, yeah. Muslim and everything. Everybody said, this is dynamite, you know, but, but then the flip side of that is that, um, the powers that be, um, legitimize their existence by giving us the impression that we're being inclusive in the development of this country and really we're being used misused and abused in that whole process. Because like I said, the more things change, the more they remain the same. And you're using us to legitimize the beer, to say to the world, see a black person can become president in a place called the United States. Um, see a black woman can, maybe one day we'll be president because we now have a vice-president. And, but you better make sure that it's not misunderstood, that you will not be changing anything here at all. You got that. Yeah. Okay. So we remember where you remember where you at, Speaker 0 00:21:40 But one of the questions I had for you cause you're touching on it now, so I want to talk to it. So, um, there's a song that I really love. I need a Seminole, right? Um, it's called, I wish I knew what it felt like to be free. And for me, it's this kind of really poignant reminder that even though slavery was abolished in the Americas, you know, in the late 19th century, except of course for prisons, um, that we as black people in the 21st century are still struggling for freedom. Right. Cause the song still resonates today, I think. And so I'm wondering, based on what you were saying previously, you know, how has, or how has it, the struggle for freedom and self-determination changed since the 1970s? Speaker 1 00:22:23 Yeah. That, that question that you had asked him. And I read that, I said, this is a serious question here. And, um, and for the listeners, one is understand that I'm not a genius. This is just my humble opinion and a lot is, is best to know us, you know? And so this is just my humble, respectful opinion too, just for those listening, you know, um, about how I see things. And I'm looking at the situation all the time, because I've been involved directly involved to the point of fighting against the government with a weapon at them, you know, since I was 16 and I'm 66 years old now, so that's 50 years of being directly and intensely involved and that's just looking at it from the outside, but how I see things have changed. And my sister is in the sixties and seventies, there was a clear thought of establishing our own government home society. Speaker 1 00:23:25 And it was based mostly on the principles of socialism to divorce ourselves from a capitalist dog eat dog system that we were clearly on the bottom and it would remain like that and, and establishing a, a government based more on socialist economic principles. Now how the philosophical political outlook would have actually look like we never got that point to really know in my opinion. So then, you know, so as a Muslim, I would say, well, where does Islam fit into that? As a nationalist, somebody would say, well, where does such and such fit into that? So it really never got to that level as a people, but we do know economically that we're going to have to implement a system more akin to socialist values and principles so that people can benefit. And there's nobody to exploiting nobody. We knew that much today. I think that that, that, that, that desire to have your own is really not there amongst the broad masses of people. Speaker 1 00:24:21 It's there with different individuals and organizations, for sure it's there. So it's not that it's disappeared, but it's evaporated in the minds and psychic of the people and those people, a lot of those people, you know, that may say that a lot. So, you know, here's the deal. So it is a natural inclination inclination, uh, of every individual to do better for themselves, for their families and for their communities. So you strive to get a better job. You go to college to increase your income and, and, and, you know, obviously to pursue what you really want to do with your life. And you want to get out the hood, uh, you know, get out the slums, get out the ghetto, pardon me for using those terminologies. I don't want to stereotype, but just cutting to the chase and you know what I'm talking about, you know, and to get a better house, if you have the money to do so instead of renting, let's get or get some property and you get the property, get the house. Speaker 1 00:25:17 Um, and you may not be thinking for the conscious, progressive militant, revolutionary, whatever activists thinking that I'm wanting to become part of the capitalist society and the process of doing that. But you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're elevation in growth in this whole process kind of puts you there. And every step of the way you unwittingly unconsciously are becoming more invested in this society, in this capitalist society. So when somebody comes along now 50 years removed from freedom land in the sixties, you know, the free to land now, and you have your house and your job and your kids go to this school and you're trying to get to college and your party, you got a scholarship for, for, for basketball or football and all these investments in to this society. And, you know, are you going to uproot and move somewhere and start again? Speaker 1 00:26:12 So this is not like the 17 hundreds of something where, you know, you can almost build your own house by hand, go out there and, and, and, and get some land and, and dig it out for yourself. This is a highly advanced technological society. We, as a people who a lot of times, we don't even, particularly the activists don't even have a clue how to do it. And a lot of these things at all. And, and so the building of this building about own structure, how we are intertwined in this very society. And so for somebody to pragmatically say, we want to separate, I respectfully to my comrades is say that, and it is, and, you know, so what does that look like? And why haven't you done it? So now I went to prison for this, for four, with a gun in my hand, you know, expropriating these banks putting my life on the line. Speaker 1 00:27:02 And matter of fact, in 19, January 23rd, 1973, you know, in Columbus, Ohio, I got into a shootout that went through two counties, Franklin county and whatever the next county was trying to get away from this spot here. And the poll purpose was for this. So it wasn't like I'm just talking and Downing the whole thing about freedom land. When I risked my whole life and then had to do prison time for it. It's just that I'm looking in reality that, that, um, nobody has made a move with freedom land. You ain't bought no land yet. And any, anybody from another ethnic group or somebody that's not even conscious, just went on and got a store and started doing their thing and proliferated, you know, without the, all the Phillips, the Milton, Phillip, the philosophy about this stuff and the politics you went on and did it, but we haven't done it. Speaker 1 00:27:52 And the brothers and sisters do have land. We haven't migrated to their land. We're still there. And we're getting for those that hold that line, we're getting older and older. So we're not apt to just move. I'm not apt to move. Neither by here in Richmond, Virginia, a four bedroom house, you wouldn't go and we're going to move somebody. I'm just speaking pragmatically. So, okay. Jan, let's move. You're going to freedom land. Okay. I don't know. I've been had, I've been a case manager for 17 years on this job. I got health insurance. I got off the ride. Yes. Uh, you know, I got asthma. I'm going to leave me job and don't have the insurance. I mean, there's a lot of, I got three kids. I'm just being pragmatic. I want to draw out the answer, but you asked me what has changed. What has changed the whole notion of, uh, freedom land, uh, is only relegated to a small group of revolutionaries, which I totally love and support, but it doesn't resonate with the people and the, some of the Mo a lot of people that they may say it out, their mouth, you doggone don't believe that yourself. Speaker 1 00:28:50 Because when you start talking about practically and pragmatically, how are you going to do this? You don't have a clue. And if you're a situation individually wants to change, all of a sudden you got that boom job, or you scored on that rap music. He was saying, yeah, man, they picked you up, man, on that label. So you went from that studio in the garage now and everything, you know, some record label or whether they even have record labels, whatever somebody picked you up and it's going to pay you. You ain't going nowhere. I already know that. And the same thing with the activists on the streets, do your military press protesting the police violence. The attitude has changed there too. So when you get clumped, upside the head, or they may shoot you and they lock you up, you're crying. Look what they did when you did that to us, we're trying to escape. Speaker 1 00:29:33 We're doing our pushups F you, and we're the struggle continuous, like the movies spooky step by the door. When you're getting incarcerated, you continue to build and fight. You don't bake for a lawyer. I couldn't give a damn. If a lawyer came to see me or not just give me a crack. So that's the difference in thinking when you're trying to build a nation, that means you have to have warriors to fight you yourself. Even if you're not on the front fighting line, have to be of that frame of mind, but not of that frame of mind and let somebody get arrested today. There'd be emails flying. It's almost all got arrested. You got her coldblooded panic. And for those that are listening, if I may sister close your eyes right now, you close your eyes right now. And imagining the FBI coming to your door and, and handcuffing you, charging you with something that you vaguely know about, but it really wasn't me. Speaker 1 00:30:24 Oh my God, how they got me twisted with that. That was, oh, and now they take you downtown. They book you in and you don't get a phone call right away. Now you get to get a lawyer and now you have a job. And then you're going to lose that. The car note is due. Can't pay that your house in the apartment is gone. And now you and your lawyer comes to see you. And he's talking this crazy stuff. And now you might be facing five years, which is not the time that we were facing, but just, you know, let's pick a number five years or some charges you really have nothing to do about, then there's a conspiracy thing that complicates it. Did I, but I know about it. That's what Mullica did that, that wasn't me, um, man, and all of this, and you can see right there in your own imagination, how F w would be this discombobulating and disruptive that would be for your family. This is the cost of freedom. And if you can navigate that imagination, that imaginary thought in your mind, where you can feel some type of strength in the midst of that oppression and that discombobulation that disruption, but your family is separating for your kids and all that. If you can't see yourself in that, and then how you be strong in that and enduring, and that then back up a minute. Speaker 0 00:31:34 So these terms you're using, so sort of, you know, um, rebellion versus riot, um, expropriation versus a robbery and freeing the land, right? What you're saying, there was a particular kind of consciousness. I think we call it like black consciousness, right? Where people see themselves as a nation, you see yourself as a nation, as a nation who doesn't have, or struggling for your own freedom and self-determination as a nation, right? And so nations need land, right? And nations have adversaries, right? The United States government is your adversary. These institutions that they have that are, you know, that have been exploring your community since the 15 hundreds, right. These institutions, now they they're, there's a debt and we're going to take it, right. So this is a very different kind of way of seeing your community and its relationship to United States fast forward, you know, almost 50 years later and black people are not everyone's that on that page. Speaker 0 00:32:37 Right. Many people, deeper investments, even if they don't see it that way, deeper investments in right. How, how the system actually works. And so it's a lot harder, right. For people to imagine that they would do those kinds of things. Right. So that's what I hear what you're saying. And, and I'll just add to that too, when I was listening to you too, I think, and this and this, and that's that, that complication, that paradox you were mentioning earlier as well. Right. Because while that's true that there's these investments, right. You know, after sort of you have the black power movement, and then you have the influx of crack cocaine, heroin, these drugs, where all these ways in which the community also kind of like the strength that you would have, right. Is being, uh, is being, um, sort of whittled away by these structural things like drugs, like and mass incarceration. And so I wanted to move to mass incarceration because, you know, you paid a really heavy cost for your commitment to our freedom of self-determination. And so can you tell us, and you can tell a story, you know, you said it was January, right. In Columbus, Ohio. So how did you go from January and Columbus, Ohio to becoming a political prisoner? Speaker 1 00:33:52 Well, I'm doula. So yeah, that's the last, um, bank expropriation in Columbus, Ohio, uh, had some beautiful comrades with me and it's just for juicy tidbits for the listeners, you know? So we actually were here, got away from this, this, uh, bank, just wanting to hear the details. Cause it's kind of exciting, you know? And, um, we had Joel some neighborhoods away. And the only reason I know these details, cause I actually went to trial. Only reason I went to Charles because you can't do it. If you don't get, you gotta be moving back and forth somewhere. Anyway. So anyways, so I'm sorry. Um, this guy had his hobby was listening to his bear cat scanner for police reports and all that stuff. And then he's looking out the window, he's looking out the window for his one-time pension check. And he's hearing that the bank was robbed around the corner he's oh. Speaker 1 00:34:51 And he's hearing that it was noted to be three black men. I mean four black men, even though one was a sister, uh, and the curves, like a blue four door sedan, even though it was green, but nevertheless he's at the same time, he's listening to his hobby bear, cat scan and looking out the window for the mail man. He sees us pull up in front of his house for black people getting out of this, um, described car, getting into another car and an SUV back then it was called SUV. But this, uh, travel, uh, this other vehicle and he calls the police and give them the scription of our vehicles. Oh my God. So by the time we get on the highway, change our clothes in the car. Like our routine was. And on our ways we separated two cars chilling and going back to, um, New York, all of a sudden we hear on this, everybody says CB bands back then, you know, break a breaker one nine, uh, you know, this is Chuck is talking to me. So he said, we got gotta, um, convoy, smokey bear bears coming up on the such and such mile. Marker. And I was saying, we just pass this such and such mile marker. And I'm like, what? That then somebody said, oh, by golly, we got a bear in the air. And I look up, there's a helicopter. Speaker 1 00:36:09 There's no U-turn thing, except for authorized vehicles. There's police is looking at us as said, now the chase is on. And we was chased through two counties and shots. You know, we fight over a hundred rounds, a hundred rounds of exchange on that highway. I think, you know, a lot that nobody, no pedestrian was shot, you know, but we lit them up and not a single one, their bullet sit over here because it does ask them, they told them they need to go to the shooting practice anyway. But, um, that was how, the only regret I had, I didn't cut demands on the money and let it go over the highway. I would've loved to have done that, you know, but, um, and check this out. So when we didn't know, I got my brains knocked out on the road there. Uh, when I was captured by the police, I mean, they beat the Dickens out of me. Speaker 1 00:36:55 That was the first of about three or four serious beating, serious beatings that I received. And so when we put us, myself and the sister that I was with, um, I don't know if she would want to name mentioned something that I was with my comrade. They put us in a car and the other two comrades were busted. They were stopped about a mile earlier. And so they had this black sheriff drive in the car and I told him, brother, we are members of the black liberation army. We're fighting for the freedom of our people. You know, could you let us go? And you can just say we escape. And his response was to look in the rear view mirror at us. And I know that one is, can't see my face, but, uh, he just said, if you can hear my breathing like that, it's like, he kind of related to what we was, this my, you might've been saying kiss my behind for real. Speaker 1 00:37:50 But my, my, my judgment of his response was he was like, took note of that. He, he shook his head like somewhat in like acknowledgement of that. But, uh, you know, I can't do that. So even with that saying that, and then when I got there to the police station, they separated me and the sister. And, um, you know, he bought me a pack of Benson and hedges. I didn't even smoke. I started smoking smoking. Like I was better than that, just in the Coca Cola that was spoken court. He said, man, good luck after the shootout. And after the beating this man saying, good luck, man gave me some cigarettes. I guess he assumed that smoke, which I, and um, but I did then for about two months I stopped again. But, um, and, and, and a soda and wished me well. So I think that even with the capture of certain police, you know, who, when they realized who we were, it kind of resonated with them. I could be wrong, but they are, you know, but that's how I look at that. Um, so that's that, but I'm almost like now, what was your original question that you forgot? Speaker 0 00:39:02 So that was the story of how so you, so this is the last expiration of a bank that you committed. You're on a high speed chase there, Ohio, you get picked up, you know, the police capture you, they beat you, right. You end up in jail. I believe you get beat up. He said three times. So you get beat Speaker 1 00:39:21 My incarceration, different incidents happened. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:39:25 And so you, so I'm assuming you go to a trial and you get convicted for 23 years. Is that right? Speaker 1 00:39:31 No. Uh, first child is two, uh, two expropriations, one was in New York. This was in Columbus, Ohio. So we got convicted for the one in Columbus, Ohio first. And then I went back to an older one and, you know, we have, there was a whole bunch of, uh, expropriation just got convicted for too. And, um, so I, I got, uh, 25 years max and three years for a sawed-off shotgun, which during that time, you know, you only get about five to six years for a bank bank robbery back then, you know? Well, we got, I got 25 years and three years for a sort of side that was 28. When I went back to New York, I got another additional 15. So it was a total of 43 years. And I know I did it Speaker 0 00:40:14 Five years is what you get for a bank robbery. Speaker 1 00:40:17 I mean, the statute cabbage, uh, 18 USC, whatever it is, I forget 2113, but it's, um, I think it's maximum 25 years. So we got the maximum. Speaker 0 00:40:28 And so why do you think you got a, why do you know you got the maximum, Speaker 1 00:40:32 There's a couple of things that just, you know, talking about this Robin hood syndrome will not be tolerated. Um, and then of course I'd kind of do myself, which I said in the beginning, make sure you stand up in court because not standing up. So it's kind of funny now, but, um, I'm an old man now, but just looking back on it, not standing up was seemed to be more offensive to that judge. Then the, the, the, the charge of the bank robbery itself, he couldn't care about that. That's just a routine. Okay. We got another robbery, another black person. Okay. You know, let's, let's do this guys, but not standing up now, who not does that. You know, that really blew his mind. Even my lawyer was like, oh, when I went back to the bullpen, nobody sit nice to me. Speaker 0 00:41:22 So I hear, because I'm thinking about what you're saying. So normally you would get five years for a bank for Speaker 1 00:41:30 A dentist. The average time, the average time, Speaker 0 00:41:33 The maximum is 25. Right. Um, you end up getting about 48 years, 43 years. Um, and I guess, I guess what I want to say, I'm forgetting my thought. Well, what I wanted to say was, and nobody died, right? Speaker 1 00:41:51 Yeah. Jovan, that guy, that cop, Shovan got less time than I did for us, for assassinating, a personal and public TV, you know, for 10 minutes almost, you know, he gets 22 years. So they, Speaker 0 00:42:05 So that's a big it's. So this is why, so I'm thinking I'm like, so this is why you talk about being a political prisoner. Right. Because the, the, the, the punishment, right. The punishments never fit the crime anyway. But, but particularly, even, even in the context of right, the criminal justice system, the punishment exceeded, right. What was normally given for that crime Speaker 1 00:42:29 Exponentially? Yes. And D and the amount of time you did in prison too, Speaker 0 00:42:34 And you become Muslim in prison. Right. As well. And so, can you talk a little bit about why, like, why did you become Muslim and then, and how does Islam figure into right. Your commitment to freedom and self determination? Speaker 1 00:42:47 Yes, indeed. So the first thing is that, but the political prisoner question real quick, when I got arrested, the whole notion of us and all my comrades, that's on the ground level, doing this serious work. If I can put it in that frame terminology, you know, we didn't necessarily consider ourselves political, the death toll thought and concept. And, you know, Huey was a political prisoner and Bobby <inaudible> the Panther 21, because these are highly celebrated cases that are so absurd and ridiculous and Huey being the, uh, one of the co-founder with Bobby seal. So his case rightfully took notoriety. And so they were political prisoners, free Huey for, you know, like that <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:43:34 And there was no free jihad. I mean, so, so, um, we didn't even view us as that. I mean, we know we were warriors, you know, we knew who we were, we weren't even shipping it at all. We're gaining any outside support. You know, if that's such, um, we were working out him, PE classes, we were, you know, if we could escape out of there, we could, which is, you know, difficult maroon Schultz did it a couple of times. And the side of the was blessed to get the heck out of Dodge. But for the most of us, we were locked down steady, you know, but that's how I added to, was it wasn't really assistant to, um, the book calling up the morning and then in national Jericho movement in 1998, uh, was started, uh, that, and that's almost, I came home in 2000. Speaker 1 00:44:19 So it was then that people were saying, well, you know, who are these Panthers? Who are these bla members? They are political prisoners before that. I never even referred to myself as a political prisoner, to be honest with you, I'm just like brother jihad. So this whole notion, which I'm glad it came up and the realization that we caught up to speed, that we are in prison because of our political activities and the notion of pow, a political prisoner of war. A lot of prisoners say that too, but a lot of people don't, uh, strategically use that. It doesn't, you know, and I don't know if you have time to talk about how fact that so many of us has been in prison now for 50, 60 years, we don't. Now we've gone back to not saying political prisoners in a lot of circles do justice circles, because they'll never let you go out. Speaker 1 00:45:05 They never let you home. So in order for you to come home, you have to dummy down, eat humble pie, grumble the ground, apologize, not apologize, but shall we Morse and regretfully what you did and maybe the parole board let you out. And because there's no real strong movement to effectuate a demand to demand that you be released, you almost got to write these good boy scout letters and you know, and girl scout letters to the parole board and how I got my GED. And haven't got an incident report and in 30 years and how I've been a good inmate, and please let me go home. That's where we at right now. That's where we are right now, 2021 in order for Sundiata or anybody else to come home at Poindexter, uh, you management. I mean, well, maybe not his case is different, but any, most of the political prisons that had come out, the Panther movement, you almost got to show what a boy scout we are. Speaker 1 00:45:53 Please let us come home. And I'm saying that, hopefully for see, I'm saying that facetiously, hopefully not disrespect anybody, but anybody listening that does the work. No I'm telling them the truth. You know, you almost got to in lawyers would say, shh, don't say political prisoner. Never let you go. I disagree with that. But that's the desk, the, uh, fabric of what we that's the climate. So that's be becoming Muslim. I became Muslim. Um, and three months after I was incarcerated, I always black Panther party is a Marxist-Leninist organization ascribed to that. I, uh, long sense to the cultural revolution in the sixties, debunk Christianity, you know, and the racism and Jesus being a white blue. I blind here, which Islam, um, definitely, um, uh, validates the existence of Jesus. He's a prophet of a law. So we respect and venerate him, but not as a white person, blonde hair and blue eyes. Speaker 1 00:46:47 And so I only knew that the Christian version, the slave master version has definitely wasn't going to ascribe to that. So I defaulted to this, uh, atheist belief. So I thought of Marxist Leninism. I always believed in God and my heart never really professed it. Cause I didn't know where to, how to articulate or even to understand it at 16, just reading a lot of literature. And we read, we read, we read, we read, there was no cell phone to distract you where we competed in how many books we could read back then as teenagers. And so that was that for Christianity. So I wasn't having that, even though my mother was a Christian and may allow, have mercy on her and, and hum doula. And, and so, but I didn't ascribe to that. And so when I went to prison, I was invited to Juma by a brother, then New York that I used to see drank wine and play the trashcan on the street drums. Speaker 1 00:47:40 I said, what are you doing here? So anyway, he's a beautiful brother. He'd be happy. Took her Shahada. Kamasi Sidiki fed hint. Hilton was in the first prison I was at. I realized that he was there with the Muslim. He's a bla member. I said, what are you doing there? What, what is this about? So I finally went to Juma and see bro people coming out, dripping water NOLA, whoever wants it. I'm sitting on the floor. I'm saying where the chairs, no chairs up in here. I like to sit on them. Now we used to it as Muslims, but you know, you go somewhere and there's no chairs, not unless you're older, got an injury. You know, it's just, you know, saying that they're sitting on the side, but nobody in the prison sitting on the chair or a healthy install and everybody's sitting on the floor so awkward. Speaker 1 00:48:22 I'm just like, hi. Okay. And, but the couple was on brotherhood. I remember to this day. And that was, uh, April 16th, I believe. Or maybe, I don't know the date on that Friday, but it was in April, uh, 1976. I took my Shahada. They gave me some pamphlet, threefold pamphlets to read. I read them. They were shocked that I read them overnight. Now, when did you read them? Did you read them? Because I read, I read all that. And being in a Marxist, there's a principle called dialectical materialism. Then I'm always looking for a contradiction in something, something, a flaw, something there because a lot of city create everything's in pairs. So, but you know, just looking at, I didn't find anything when it came to the one that's of a law and it really, really resonated with me. And I took my Shahada and never stopped. Speaker 1 00:49:07 I was so grateful to allow for blessing me to see that light in certain things. And I just want to make it brief for criticism to say that really changed my thinking, because that was one of your questions. How Islams I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't. So, uh, bitter as such and I started viewing people more critically as who they are. Now, you may stereotype a group of people to put something in perspective, the police or the police watch out. But obviously if you talking to somebody individually, they become an individual. And as a Muslim, that's how I'm saying in all due respect to somebody that may not think that way, you know, it no longer a pig is a pig. As a pig is a police as a police, as a police. And it might be your next door neighbor and he may hate his job. Speaker 1 00:49:53 And so, um, so I'm in a, or we may take a Shahada next week. So it made me back off of the, um, the, the tough guy thing, even though I think I was still a little tough, but, uh, you know, and I, and I started talking, so I got beat up a couple of times in prison by the guards, but eventually, and then we just go so hard with them, great non, you know, stand them down and like, you know, but eventually not that, um, Islam and just making a joke now made me uncle Tom enough like that. You know, I just started being more pleasant. And I took my time to explain the truth of veracity, of our struggle to any, and all people could be the warden, the associate warden, the CEO on the correctional officer, and then the block, the turnkey, whatever you want to call him, because I know we were right. Speaker 1 00:50:39 I know our struggle was righteous. I just had to take a minute, take a deep breath and take the time to explain it to people. And I got a think, I think I can explain what we're doing very well. Ally knows best. But just to, uh, just to say that, you know, I can talk, I can talk and explain what we're all struggling and, and the history of our struggle and the facts around their oppression and all of these things to a person without condemning them as being a part of that. If I'm talking to you individually and I learned to smile, I learned to say what I teach my children now, thank you. It's pleasing. Excuse me, are three words that the youth need to embrace. It can get you through so many doors. It doesn't make you a chump or coward or anything like that. Speaker 1 00:51:20 It makes you expectable individual. And the last thing, sister, I started looking at myself as an ambassador of the struggle. So how should my conduct be vulgar, thuggish, tough swaggering? Or should I carry myself with dignity and pride and explain myself as a statesman to anybody I'm talking to, even my enemy. And so I would stand up for a judge, not because I'm scared of you because I am not, but because I respect what I'm doing, I respect myself. But back then, I was like a slap and spit in your face. I mean, you know, spit in your food and, you know, break your ink pen. If you're not looking at anything, I could just stick something in the lock. Anything I can do to disrupt in this joy. But obviously I'm not 20 years old now. And that, that change came definitely from me being a Muslim and how I viewed myself and that, and the last thing was say, well, there's so many things to say, but Islam took the anxiety out of the struggle in terms of dying in terms about victory, all of this is in the hands of a law, not your hands. Speaker 1 00:52:25 And the many you think is in your hands here comes the anxiety. We didn't win. More. Things changed more during the same year in the same condition we were in the same, this, you know, my dad and this and that, but everything, um, uh, laws in full control you do as the best you can and totally rely on the law. And that's, um, it's easier said than done. That's true. It is a challenge from day to day because we have many challenges, but ultimately that's your default. And that is my default and eliminate 90% of my anxiety because you're always going to have some anxiety. Can't pay the rent car broke down like mine did this morning. And, um, it's always going to be that day-to-day anxiety and the anxiety of the struggle and people getting killed by the police. You know, I used to think that Christians were like, kind of like soft and mealy mouth. Speaker 1 00:53:11 You know, how they always like praise God and, and forgive people. And not that we're that forgiving as Muslims, but I respect that now, because somewhere in there is the, uh, realization allows in control. And that's a healthy way as is. So maybe we don't have the turn to cheek way about it. So there is some definitely distinct differences, but to recognize that, you know, you will not die unless a lot, let you die at this time, this place right now, I don't care if he was in lofty tower somewhere in a way in the Caribbean enjoying yourself, or you was on a street corner making a drug sale that went south. If that's the time for you to die a lot knows that, and you will die. That is my belief. I find solace in that. And it eliminates a 90% of my fear and my anxiety. And no, I talk too much. No, Speaker 0 00:54:05 You don't. So, I mean, that's really powerful. And so it's them, doesn't change your, your commitment to the struggle, right. But it changes your approach to how you operate, right. As, uh, as you said, as slam, eliminate things. I of the shuttle, which is something I know resonates with me because as someone who's from the generation sort of after yours, right. Who had a mother who was also involved in black freedom struggles in that period, I often feel like, you know, what do we like, what happened? And what am I doing? You know, am I doing enough things? Am I doing the right thing? What else should I be doing? You know? And so I wouldn't, I would embarrass it on that for a while. So one of my other questions for you is, so you're a part of the leadership of an international tribe, funeral, right. Called the spirit of Andela, which convenes in October. And it convinced a campaign to bring us human rights violations of us vocal prisoners, right. To some sort of international accountability. And it reminded me of earlier campaign campaigns, like we sharp recharged genocide. Um, and what I noticed also is that the tribe Udall and its aims are multi-racial and global right. And kind of scope. So can you share with us um, sort of what is the history of this tribunal? The focus. Speaker 1 00:55:26 Yes. Thank you, sister. Um, this, um, what's being referred to now is the October, 2021 international tribunals. It builds on the shoulders of all tribunals proceeding. It was brother Lennox, Hein. There was a foul cone and so many others that has been involved as I'm just talking now the names escape me. How dare I let them escape out of my mind at the moment, but so many wonderful, powerful sisters and brothers that's been involved with these, uh, tribunals charging genocide, trying to bring a resolve to our condition and move it further. So this is another tribunals building on the shoulders of those tribunals. Number one, it's not an abstract isolated, you know, thing that just popping up like this. So the spirit of Mandela was called for by JLL Multa Kane, uh, Muslim, uh, bla political prisoner was recently released a year or so two years ago now, um, he called for this coalition from prison and we established it. Speaker 1 00:56:26 And out of that coalition, one of the main, uh, project is to try immuno. So now we have a coalition. It's not a black nationalist initiative as such or anything like that. As a coalition to bring charges against United States government, it is an organizing tool. It is not just an event charged the government with the obvious, the historical and systemic obvious of political prisoners, incarceration or genocide as you, if you will, and then take these, this documentation and this verdict to you, the UN human rights council or something like that. And, and I say this not facetiously, and then not do anything. Speaker 1 00:57:10 Some international entities has been very, very lackluster, if not, nothing at all. When it comes to our conditioning of African descent, people of African descent in the United States and people of color indigenous people, the whole nine yards, it has not been too much, even though it has many colors and biases and human rights issue. We used to take it to the national stage. We are doing that. We have done that. There's Stripe Buno does that, but it also is an organizing too many. We are trying to organize as many people as possible around this. And we have hundreds now by the grace and mercy of a lot. Hopefully we have thousands because the outcomes of this tribe Buno is not just a, uh, a potential verdict of guilty for the United States on the different charges for I'm going to say in a minute, but it's also setting the stage as a result of this organizing and this tribunal being a focal event, to bring people together, to be able to codify and publish the results to really put in line, even for you as a teacher, to be able to have, okay, this tribunal put some things in a certain, um, perspective, a certain, uh, uh, order codified it. Speaker 1 00:58:18 So it can be taught easily or, and put connecting the dots to educate people around the world, including the United States. But afterwards, we're going to be calling for, um, the organizing of a people Senate. So you have the United States Senate, you have the house of representatives. We're going to have our own Senate, not a third party to deal with the electorial thing. We don't want to get in that muddy water, but, you know, and we're, we're building this car as we were driving it. And, but we were getting the, the critical thinking of so many wonderful, beautiful people, sister, you know, so we'll be having regional conferences after the Tribune. It won't be like, like, and I say this with all due respect after a lot of the tribunals, not all of them, once the tribunals over is it, man, that was a hell of a thing. What happened? Speaker 1 00:59:08 And then 10 50, 20 years later, we're referring to that, which we should, and I'm glad it happened so that we can refer to it. But it's like an absence of any activity afterwards, because we put it in the hands of an entity that doesn't respond to us. So it's a little motor can said, and calling for this initiative, he had a slogan, which I so much agree with. It says we are our own liberator's. We have to figure this out. You know, we're not just presenting something to the government, hoping, asking, even demanding that they do something. We are building an organizing ourselves so that we can build ourselves our own communities. The whole concept of self-determination can be visualized in the efforts in organizing this tribunals. People send it across all 50 contiguous states with religious organizations and indigenous nations involved. How that representation will look. Speaker 1 01:00:02 We will answer that hopefully as we go along, but you can see the visionary concept in mind is very potent. To me, this is the most, this is the most comprehensive, um, strategy to do address our conditions since I've been home. And I came home in 2000 because you know yourself, a lot of programs, it's 99% talking about UN analyzing our situation. And very little was said about what to do. And that's because it's very problematic in complex. And it's difficult question, what do you do? What can you do have another rally, which is very important, demonstrate very important. They didn't hear you. They didn't listen. They made a crack, your head open. And if you burn down enough of your own community, they may listen and change a policy, but it's just, um, but the system remains the same and what's remiss in that whole thing, sister, and then I'll be quiet is, um, the ability for us to organize and do for ourselves, the sense and notion of self-determination. Speaker 1 01:00:57 We have dilapidated communities, nobody wants to hear about how we're shooting and killing ourselves when we're talking about police violence, because that's what the detractors do. You killing yourself, but I'm not raising it for to detract. I'm raising it to bring out the fact that we need to, to build our community so that the world will respect us so that we can actually effectuate a demand until we do that. Our protests and rallies out of all due respect for all of us in the street, including myself, is that, um, we're actually asking, begging, pleading with the slave master to get this overseer, to treat us better. And we're leaving our own communities to go haywire, reckless. The black Panther party didn't do that. We were entrenched in the community. We stop in the drug, Trey, you know, death to the pusher, death, to the pigs. Speaker 1 01:01:44 You know, we were there in a military formation, a power military formation, and we're trying to build infrastructure and community by food, clothing, and shelter. Now we had a lot to learn. Our lifespan was very short, the pig, the police vamped on us and chew, but there's a lesson there about how necessary it is to be in our communities and not let that poor all the demonstrations. They're not addressing the hood. They're asking the government to change policy. And that is very important, sisters and brothers, but you can't do that with total remission and absence of us building our own. What does that even look like? And there's, and so that's, what's remiss out of this struggle today. So this tribunals going to try to address that you can go to spirit of mandela.org and see all the information and very easy spirit of Mandela, spirit of mandela.org. Everything I said is on that website and you can endorse it. We, it endorse it because $25, we're not asking money from Coca-Cola or anything like that is your money. And if we get a hundred thousand people, we have $2.5 million. So we can pay lawyers afterwards to be able to organize and activist to do the work that people was doing free right now. Right. Speaker 0 01:02:55 And is there an exact date in October 22nd, Speaker 1 01:02:58 23rd and 24th that weekend, Speaker 0 01:03:00 That weekend. And we'll be, I guess, online or in person, or how has the, how Speaker 1 01:03:04 Old in New York, but so we are a physical live component and it definitely would be live strain of coronavirus taught us just like we're using this beautiful platform. Now it will be live stream. We have nine jurors. Most of them from, from overseas, we're not gonna announce who they are yet strategically not to do that. And, uh, and <inaudible>, uh, African assistant, African of African descent will be heading the legal team there. And we will have witnesses. It's not a speaking engagement for celebrity activists. You know, we're having impacted in, in, in expert witnesses on all those charges, we're gonna publish all the results, get this information out to the people. And like I said, health, hopefully we'll be able to capitalize off the, all the organizing we have done leading up into that. Speaker 0 01:03:49 So thinking about political prisoners and what you just said about them being forgotten, I guess my question is what does not forgetting them? What does remembering them, what does that offer or give to our brains? Our understandings of what freedom and self-determination are Speaker 1 01:04:11 Not forgetting them means to support them in any way in space that you can. Number one, we recognize the fact, cause now the efforts is almost borderline begging now because a lot of the brothers may say brothers because it was only first of all, it's so many political prisoners not represented by Jericho and anarchist black cross and the Malcolm X grassroots movement, these Vanguard organizations that represent political prisons. And if, if there's any other organizations, you know, uh, black is back coalition, the African people's socialist party, these organizations that support political prisons, but outside of these formations, um, people don't not know about who they are. So we're trying to get attention to them so that you can write them so that, you know, on your own platforms, on your own Facebook page with your own technology on Instagram, you can at least mention one, send somebody $15 because that, that means a lot for that survival and the mental health of that person. Speaker 1 01:05:07 That's in prison for four, five decades, for example, um, in to be able to respond to a call, if they have a medical issues, sometimes it's a mass call to call into a governor, to a warden or to whatever to bring attention. And this has definitely saved the lives of prisoners throughout time, but we recognize that you may die there, you're a freedom fighter. You might die in prison, but we're doing all that we can to bring you home. Or if you're there to make sure that do your, you, uh, people realize that to give you protection guards and prison institutions do less damage to you when they know that the world is looking so to speak. And like, again, you can just write people. And that makes, I know when I was in prison to get a letter from somebody that's a big deal. Speaker 1 01:05:56 So that's what remembering them is. And not remembering them as this is for let them, whether in die. And you were cutting off the most direct connection between past struggles and current struggles, not reading a book, but supporting a live freedom fighter from that era. That is the best connection that you can possibly make with, um, you know, connecting the dots between then and now, you know, pretty soon we all be dead and there word of mouth, African tradition will be gone. I mean, we can put it in a book and hope the heck that you read it since you're not reading too much anymore. Um, but, um, but there were just what I'm saying. And you've been, I've been blessed to be on your program, sister. Um, this is a good time. There will be no, and I'm the youngest of them and I'm be 67 this year, you know? So all the old, uh, Panthers and black liberation army members will be dead soon. So there's nobody that you'll be able to talk to, to ask her, uh, actual question so you can read it if you read and even then you will miss a lot of nuance artist's Speaker 2 01:06:59 Duty as far as I'm concerned is to reflect the times. I think that is true of painters, sculptors, poets, musicians. I am concerned it's their choice, but I choose to reflect the times and the situations in which I find myself back to me is my duty. Speaker 0 01:07:23 So I have some elastic questions about art. Um, so amongst all the things that you do, um, you're also a playwright, um, which I think is fantastic. Um, and I, I just, I'm just, I'm interested in your thoughts, right? Like what is the role of arts right in the struggle for freedom? And self-determination Speaker 1 01:07:48 The role of art Bismillah? The role of art is probably more pronounced and enduring than me running my mouth, like right now, or being on a speaking engagement or a seminar because people listen to music. They, they, they vibe off of visual and intimate tainment. If you can put it that way, I've written dozens of plays on my own. I never went to school for, I started doing it, I guess when I was in New York in one or two plays and I actually liked it, I can write and I just enjoy, uh, pay attention to detail, have always worked with wonderful people. My wife helps me now. We have a community theater company called for our children reduction. We haven't done nothing since coronavirus and a little bit before that time, just getting a breather, but we've done some fantastic performances. You learn a lot is education. Speaker 1 01:08:34 We like to be entertained. That's our culture. You know, the dancing, the music, one of the most pronounced things about the movement beyond anybody's speech that you can even remember, even Malcolm's speeches is something like James Brown, I'm black, and I'm proud. Say it loud. I mean, how enduring is that? I mean, so our culture, our music, our dance, you know, so Trey, I mean that resonates with people that are not so intensely involved. It resonates amongst the masses of people. So we need a cultural revolution to change the thinking of our youngsters, because a parent can tell their teenager, all of these things, but if it's not reflected in the music that they listened to, if it's not reflected in the dance and the plays, if you see place or in the movies, then it's not going to, it's going to be very difficult for the resonate in the masses of people. You can call activists, maybe that go the length to make sure they understand it's different. I'm talking about just your, your, your children, you know, and your next door neighbor. That's just working, living for the weekend. Like though Jay says, and what does the weekend present? If it presents something very negative, then, you know, so culture, I think is very important. We're going to reboot the place, uh, Michelle, uh, looking forward to that. Gotcha, cool. Speaker 0 01:09:57 So we have a question. We ask all our guests that I'm going to ask you, Speaker 1 01:10:00 Oh boy, I know what it is. Speaker 0 01:10:04 If you had a black Muslim theme song, what would it be? Speaker 1 01:10:12 I think, well, when I looked at that question, um, would have to be something on Islamic line. I know the song, I liked the best in the movement to be young, gifted and black. That's where it's at, you know, that. And so I was, you know, even though to be young, gifted and Muslim, uh, doesn't necessarily rhyme. So I have to ask my son, the rapper to put that together, you know, but it would be something that has a jingle to it along that line that you can sing that has a beat to it too. You know? And I, and I say young, because I would want it to appeal to the young people. I want it to accentuate the fact that you have a gift. You may have to dig to find it, but everybody has their own gifts and jewels and gems to present to the world. Speaker 1 01:11:01 You may not even recognize it yourself, you know, and to highlight the fact that you are Muslim, you know, and I think that that's, um, the fact of being in line with your creator, uh, listening audiences is the most important thing in your life, uh, regardless of the child's tribulations and assist the tools that we may experience. You know, we, um, you have to be in line with your creator, you will die. And my, my daughter said, well, even if I didn't know that, or I was in doubt, I'd rather err, on the side of the Carson, then, you know, be so arrogant as to say, well, that didn't matter in die. And now you're in for another reckoning. And that was the reason why I know off the question real quick, but you know, another reason, you know, just realizing that, um, our returning to a law it is, is, uh, this answers the question about existence because minus that answer there, I mean, if you just go by the evolution thing that really leaves you in a quandary, what is this all about? I might as well go for it for real. And as the, uh, the oppressors in society are going for it because there's no reckoning, you know, thought with, um, reckoning in the hereafter. So it would be to be young, gifted, and Muslim, and try to make that right, uh, resonate in some type of rhythm to call my children and to do that. They'll put it together in a minute, but that's what it would be. And I loved that song to be young, gifted and black. That's a powerful song, you know, Speaker 0 01:12:29 Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you so much for joining me today on, on the square. Thank you for tuning into this episode of on the square, real talk on race and a slab in the Americas. As special podcast series brought to you by Fabuloso square and the Maidana thanks to our guests. She had a double meat. You can find more information about what we discussed, including links and more by visiting sapele square.com/on the square or the maiden.com/podcast. Our theme music was created by phonetic on feet.