Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 Welcome to on the square especial podcast brought to you by SAP Willow square in collaboration with the may. Dan, I am Dr. <inaudible> Javier senior editor of staphylo square and curator producer of this podcast where every month we get on the square and into some real talk about race at a slam in the Americas
Speaker 1 00:00:30 Sounded like, um, I am about to Kazi Nance, the arts and culture editor at set below square on today's episode of on the square. I'm speaking with writer and educator, Amani and single Jabbar author of the 2020 novel. I bear witness talking about her book, the craft of writing and being a black Muslim woman writer, Amani and Zynga Jabbar is a professor of English author, marathon runner health, coach, wife, and mother of three born in Brooklyn, New York, and raised in new Orleans, Louisiana. She now makes her home in Decatur, Georgia, Sonoma lake, and my Manny, and welcome to on the square. Thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 2 00:01:16 Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 00:01:18 Awesome. So before we start talking about your book and writing, we do have a question that we ask all of our guests. Uh, so can you share with us your personal black Muslim theme song?
Speaker 2 00:01:31 Um, okay. So there's this artist, her name is Draya dinner. Um, have you heard of her she's based in Brooklyn, New York. Um, and she has a lot of spirit like spiritual songs and things like that. Um, and she's just like really great singer, but one song I really loved by, uh, by her is called God is my goal. And it doesn't really have a lot of different lyrics in it, but it's just like a really strong reminder of, you know, why we're here, not just here in America, but here, you know, on earth in a way. Um, and just kind of bringing it up.
Speaker 1 00:02:00 I don't know that song. So now I'm going to have to look it up. Yeah. Yeah. She does have a beautiful voice though. Awesome. All right. So yeah, so we're here to talk to you. Um, we want to learn about your, your book that you wrote. So tell us what is I bear witness?
Speaker 2 00:02:20 Yeah, so I bear witness it's, it's a novel, it's a base in the city of new Orleans. Um, and it follows a young girl named Anya. You know, it's kind of a little bit of a coming of age story, a little bit of, you know, it's kind of starts and she has like flashbacks throughout the story. So it starts out, you know, her life, um, kind of going into the world, out into the world, leaving the comfort of her home. She was kind of homeschooled and, and really, um, maybe a little bit naive to life and then going into college and kind of trying to uphold her Muslim identity and keep her faith in Islam. Um, and then, you know, she, of course she makes life choices. Like we all do when she kind of thinks as long as she follows Islam, know the tenants of Islam.
Speaker 2 00:03:00 And, um, you know, she kind of helps her mom in the, in the mosque kitchen and she thinks to herself, well, if I just follow the Cron and Suna and life is kind of like this recipe where, uh, put a little bit of this and a little bit of that life is going to turn out, you know, as I want it to. And when she kind of grows up and realizes that, you know, it doesn't always work out like that in life kind of throws things at you that you don't plan for, even if you do kind of make the right, the right quote unquote decisions and the right choices, things can kind of still happen that will throw you off course. And that's kind of like the beauty of life is still trying to maintain your faith and maintain your, um, you know, your Islam through it all.
Speaker 1 00:03:42 Awesome. So in the title, I bear witness, I mean, it's, um, it's kinda, it's interesting title, you know, and I think for Muslims, especially we, we recognize that immediately, right. Um, with our Shahada. Right. And w which we repeat often. Um, so w w was, I guess I'm just curious, like, um, how did you come to that title?
Speaker 2 00:04:07 Yeah. You know, growing up, you know, and especially, you know, if you're, if you're a born Muslim quote, unquote, you know, you you'll raise Muslim, we kind of take the Shahada for granted in a way, like, you know, sometimes not saying everybody, but some of us, okay, we know we're a Muslim. Um, and we don't ever, sometimes we don't make that conscious decision to like, you know, we don't take our Shahada, like somebody who becomes a Muslim, you know, they take their Shahada, they make this conscious decision. I'm changing my life. I'm going to be Muslim. So where someone who's sometimes born into the religion, we can sometimes take it for granted that, you know, that we take it for granted that we have this faith, that we have this Islam that we have this religion. Um, and then sometimes when things happen in life, we might realize, wait, is my faith as strong as I thought it was. Um, and you know, uh, a law says, you know, do you think that you will not be tested in this life? So it kind of speaks to her struggle throughout the book and her kind of choosing to yes. Keep the faith. Yes. Have to alcohol. Yes. Trust in a law. Um, so yeah, that's kind of where the title came from.
Speaker 1 00:05:09 Yeah. That's really interesting what you say. Cause I think, you know, like for myself, like I, I am a convert, like I did convert in my twenties, but you know, now that I'm a mom and raising a child and, you know, raising him up as a Muslim, um, I'm just constantly aware that like, okay, you know, he's, and I tell him, like, you're going to have to make a choice. Like if, if, uh, this is your religion, not just the religion that you were brought up in, you know, like I made a conscious choice. So I did, I did take a Shahada. I did bear witness. So, you know, inshallah, he will bear witness as well.
Speaker 2 00:05:43 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:05:44 Awesome. So, um, so why did you write this book? Why did you feel, um, compelled to write this book?
Speaker 2 00:05:52 I just see 'em nowadays, you know, and I guess it's been going on for, I'm sure a long time where you'll see some people who go through struggles in life and they kind of, instead of their struggle, bringing them closer or stronger in their faith, it kind of in a way, pushes them away from their faith. Um, you know, I I've seen friends and, you know, some, even family members, you know, you go through something and now I don't want to come to the mass gen anymore. I don't want to fast and Ramadan, you know, this thing has happened to me. Um, and instead of it bringing me closer to a law, you know, he said, God is the goal of sending me bringing closer to that goal. It's kind of veering us off track. And so I kind of wanted to show a story where somebody is going through these struggles that she never thought she would have to go through. And instead of her throwing her off course, it strengthens her faith.
Speaker 1 00:06:40 <inaudible>. Yeah. Awesome. I definitely see that in the book. Um, so, and I'm curious, just because like your college professor, marathon runner, mom of three kids, like, so I know what people are going to be asking, like how in the world do you find time to write a book?
Speaker 2 00:06:59 I sometimes I wonder that myself, I don't know, like, I don't know. I just, I've always been like really goal oriented. So like for instance, when I was training for my marathon, it was like, okay, I have to run 10, 15, 20 miles today. And no matter what else I had to do, I knew I had to get those 20 miles run first. I know it sounds crazy now. It's like, okay. And you know, and so my family kind of just falls in line. So I'm very thankful for my family and my kids. They understand, okay. You know, mommy's out running I'm even though my kids will call me while I'm running. And when I was running my marathon, my daughter tech would text was texting me like every couple of months. And it wasn't like, oh, how are you doing in this run? She was like, I'm hungry.
Speaker 2 00:07:49 When are you coming home? But, um, I just, so I've always been kind of goal oriented with that, but even still, um, it took me and this is not a long book, but it took me a while to write this book just because, you know, I was teaching and, you know, being a mom of three and, um, you know, I try to be active in the community and things like that as well. So it did take a while. So I guess that's just to show you, you know, if you, if you really have a goal, if any of it takes longer than you kind of expect it to, or you are anticipating, don't give up on it, you know, even if you have to, if it takes years, you know, just keep pushing, I guess.
Speaker 1 00:08:25 Awesome. Yeah, absolutely. So, and I'm thinking too, like, you know, writing, like you said, it takes a while it's a process. You have life, you have all these things going on as well at the same time. Um, and I curious, like throughout this process, did you learn anything new about yourself or about writing through this lengthy process of writing a book?
Speaker 2 00:08:51 I realized that I had to push through a lot of doubts, just like, I would think nobody's going to want to read this, or, you know, why am I wasting my time writing this? When you know, nobody's going to be interested in this story more, you know, people don't publish, don't buy black Muslim books or, you know, just those different doubts that creep in. And it was just kind of just pushing through and understanding that there's so many people on earth, somebody is interested in your story. Somebody, your story will touch someone. And just using that as, as my faith to keep going, because, you know, um, as, as a black Muslim and our voices are not amplified as much, you know, and sometimes when you see traditionally published authors that are Muslim they're from other countries, they're, you know, Indo Pakistani or, you know, Arab or things like that. So it was just kind of pushing those doubts aside and realizing somebody wants to hear this. Somebody needs to hear this and just kind of pushing through.
Speaker 1 00:09:48 Awesome. That is that's, uh, that's an excellent approach. You know, I think for myself as a writer, like I definitely have those doubts as well. And, um, it was kind of like a light bulb moment for me to realize, well, I think these stories matter, I would like to read them. So, I mean, I'm not the only part, you know, so I can't be the only person, you know, who would find that interesting. I mean, I read books and, you know, people have book clubs, so clearly their, you know, their shared interest in things, you know, so, uh, pushing past the doubt. Definitely. Um, it makes me wonder, do you feel like there's any relationship between like your, like your, your fitness, your running and writing? Do you find a connection between like, like, like when you say pushing yourself, you know, um, I,
Speaker 2 00:10:36 Yeah, I do, because there's going to be times when you're writing, when it's uncomfortable. Um, you know, it's not always fun. Like, you know, you're a writer, so, you know, some days you get up and it's like, I don't want to write right now. I don't want to write something, but you know that, you know, maybe you have a goal you want to finish this story or finish this article. And of course you don't want to force yourself because you know, it is an inspired process as well. But if you only write on the days where you're completely inspired, you're probably not going to really produce that much. Right. So it's kind of similar with running. It's like, okay, if I only run on the days that were as perfect weather outside and, um, you know, I slept eight hours and I ate a good, you know, like how often are you really going to be running? You know, because those days, unfortunately are not happening all the time. So it's just kind of okay. Keeping your goal in mind. I want to accomplish this and, you know, maybe pushing past the discomfort and just continuing on. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:11:30 Sure, sure. True. Uh, you know, I'm backtracking a little bit, just thinking about like what your, what you said about your family and family obligations. Um, did you share with your family, like, you know, outside of your kids and whatnot like that you were writing a book. Did you share that with anybody? Or did you keep it a secret?
Speaker 2 00:11:47 I actually didn't tell my kids. I was writing it because I just didn't think they would be interested. Let's like my mom and some other people in my family and they were like, okay. And then that, which is good. Cause my mom would ask me once in a while, I thought you said you write a book, what happened? Like when you finished it yet? Or, you know, so it was kinda like, yeah, I do need to finish it. I do need to keep working on it. So, um, yeah, I think you should be selective on who you tell because some people will be supportive and only tell people who actually going to be supportive of your dream and your goal. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:12:14 And did you have any, um, like professional support? Did you do any, like, I don't know. I was like reading craft books or workshops.
Speaker 2 00:12:27 I did. It's interesting. I took, okay. So I signed up for this workshop that it was a writing workshop. And when I went, I was the only black person there. I was the only Muslim there and I was also the youngest person there, which is strange because I'm not that young, you know, like it was interesting. But even with that, sometimes you do need to kind of be exposed to different things. So I kind of just, I went, I, I, you know, I completed the workshop and everything. Um, and then as I was writing, I, um, I used the editor. So, you know, she was able to read that, read the book and give me feedback and things like that. So that was helpful as well.
Speaker 1 00:13:03 Awesome. Okay. So now that you've published the book, right, it was published last year. Um, what has been, uh, like the response to your book? What kind of responses have you gotten from readers from the public?
Speaker 2 00:13:19 The response has actually been really good and, you know, reading the reviews, it kind of just instills my faith. Okay. So people do need to hear these stories. People do want to hear these stories. So, um, you know, I've heard a lot of things like, you know, from the religious aspect, but also just, you know, dislike in general, you know, it taught people, things about life and, you know, they actually enjoyed reading it. It wasn't like something that was like really didactic where it's like hitting you over the head. It was just an enjoyable story, which I like the fact that, you know, some of the messages came through, but it was still enjoyable to read.
Speaker 1 00:13:50 Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely agree with it. Like it was, um, hard to put it, like it was the way you wrote it. It was like hard to put down. Like, do you have like a good pace? So it's like, even though like the chapters are short and so you finish the chapter and you're like, I should probably pause, but it's like, I would, I would find, I find myself like continuing to read, like I said, I was going to stop after this chapter because it just moves at such a, um, such a good pace, you know, which is of course is a great thing for, uh, uh, for a writer to be able to accomplish, you know? Um, yeah, one good
Speaker 2 00:14:26 Friend of mine told me she read it overnight and I was like, you read it in one night. She's like, yeah, I read it overnight. I was like you said, like you said, she started reading it and then she was just kept reading it. She, next thing you know, well, I'm almost done. So I was like, wow. Yeah, it was a quick read
Speaker 1 00:14:41 For me too. And I actually, I was reading it again in preparation for our top. And I, um, I guess because I was reading, I had to read it a little bit faster because of that, but I read it in like two the second time. Yeah. But have there been like any surprises in responses you've received?
Speaker 2 00:14:58 There are, uh, you know, some non-Muslims have read it. Like I know this, this non Muslim, she's actually a staunch Christian. Um, but she told me it reminded her of something spot her upbringing, just going into the world and being naive. And, you know, she was raised in the church and how things happen in her life. So it was interesting that, you know, she was able to make a connection. Like it, wasn't just, it's not just for Muslims, you know, other people can other faiths and, you know, backgrounds can benefit from it too. So that's good to hear.
Speaker 1 00:15:29 Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I do want to talk a little bit about craft, the craft of writing and the literary choices. You know, that's interests me as a reader. Um, and as a writer thinking about like why writers choose certain things, you know? Um, so one of the things that stood out to me was, um, the, the point of view, the perspective you chose to write, uh, from a first person perspective, from an eyes perspective. Um, and, um, I would like to know, like, why did you choose that over? You know, I know a lot of books are written like in third person. Right. But, but so your choice to do first person, why did you choose that?
Speaker 2 00:16:12 I think it kind of goes back to her limited, not well limited experience in the world and just, I wanted people to be kind of grounded in her experience and her, her naivety, you know, her limited, you know, she's like she hasn't been exposed to a whole lot, so I kind of want to, just to be grounded. And also, I kind of like to write in the moment with this book where, you know, you're experiencing it as she's experiencing it, you're seeing things as she's seeing them. So you can't, you're not ahead of her. You know what I mean? You're kind of just going through this with her, like your psych, your by her side. And, um, I like to kind of ground people with the senses as they were reading it, like, you know, like certain scenes, like I'll describe, you know, how things are smelling and, you know, the colors that she seeing. I just wanted people to take on these because it is kind of an emotional book and I want people to feel those emotions as she was feeling them. And I don't know if I could have accomplished that if it was, you know, third person or, you know, switching perspectives or things like that. So I kinda just wanted you to be on this road with her.
Speaker 1 00:17:14 Hmm. Yeah. And I, you know, I definitely felt that and reading it, um, there were definitely some, like I had those low, you know, those little choke up moments, you know, because she is, she is growing up and growing into herself and, um, yeah, it, it, it is refreshing to, like you say, like see things as she's seeing them, um, as she's processing them, you know? Um, because I think for an idea like, um, she feels alone, she feels a free. And so, uh, it's just a really thing that you do where it's like she's, uh, bringing us in and socially so that she feels less alone, you know? Uh, so there's like a very confessional tone. And, um, but the, the knee, the T of, of her, uh, the vulnerability that she expresses, right. So it allows me to trust her and like, to just root for her, you know, in the book, like, you know, we, we, I, I definitely, I did like, you know, one hurts to, uh, be victorious and overcome, you know, her obstacles and whatnot. You just want to give her a hug, you know? And so, yeah, it was, it was, uh, I appreciated, um, the vulnerability of her voice, because like you said, like, especially for women, black women to be vulnerable, to be soft, you know, um, that as a challenge, you know, um, black women are always expected to be, you know, very strong and we can handle things, right. But she's saying, no, I can't handle this, you know,
Speaker 2 00:18:52 Leave. And she has like a struggle where as, as you know, she didn't want to tell people, or, you know, I'm going through this, she was ashamed. And I feel like that's another thing that some people can relate to. Like, you know, we go through these things and you would never know that sister next to you is going through this same struggle that you could be going through. You know, cause sometimes we don't talk about these things, you know, especially in our community. Um, of course we, we don't want to, uh, be gossiping and backbiting and things like that. But I think sometimes that takes the opposite effect where there's people who are suffering, who need help or need assistance or need a shoulder to cry and they're scared or hesitant to just tell people what's going on. You know? So you might never know that somebody next to you is going through a really emotional time. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.
Speaker 1 00:19:38 It really is a lesson in, in, um, empathy and, and, you know, a reminder, you know, we, we're constantly reminded of that, right. That people are, everyone is going through a struggle, but we forget, right. We look at the image, right. She's a young woman, she has a husband she's pregnant. So obviously her life must be great and then turns out on the inside that it's absolutely not, you know, so yeah. I definitely appreciate that. And I think readers will appreciate that. Um, and I hope men will read it too. Have you heard it from any men, um, who have read
Speaker 2 00:20:15 It so far? None that have told me I've seen. I have, I haven't heard any, any memories. It's kind of hard to get some brothers to read fiction. I'm a female. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:20:28 Yeah. Which I love, but yeah, I think that it's a story that, you know, um, everyone, uh, can, can benefit from and learn something from. Yeah. So, and I'm also thinking about craft, about setting, um, your choice to, uh, right. Uh, to excuse me, to have the book set in new Orleans post-Katrina new Orleans, um, you know, like you've, you're from New York, lived in it, you live in Atlanta. Like you could have chosen any of those settings, but you chose new Orleans and, uh, specifically post-Katrina new Orleans. So I'm curious as to why you chose that setting. And also, what do you feel? It, it adds to the book.
Speaker 2 00:21:12 Um, I think two reasons. Well, when you think of a Mo you think of black Muslims in America, probably the last place you would think of would be neurons, right? Like you probably would expect New York to come up. You know, you expect Atlanta nowadays, LA maybe, you know, or the, you know, the bay area. I don't think you'd think of new Orleans. Um, but there's, there are Muslims in new Orleans. So just to show that we here, you know, where, where, you know, all over this country. And I think I just wanted to, you know, new Orleans has such a vibrant, it's a vibrant setting. You know, you have so many different areas and, you know, it's just a beautiful place. And I kind of wanted to showcase that as much as I could to, even though, you know, you know, it's set there and you can kind of see, because it is such a small city, that community can sometimes be stronger because it's small, you know, it's tight knit.
Speaker 2 00:22:05 And, um, you know, she kind of grows up in that small mash. Did you know her? Father's the mom. And, you know, it's just, it just shows that close knit, you know, community mashed up spirit, that you might not see other places where there's a lot, you know, it's a bigger community and people might be kind of in and out, whereas there, you know, if you're there, you know, you see the same people every week, you know, she, you know, she talks about the mash, you know, the, her little aunties in the mash dude who, you know, she kind of grew up at their knee and, and her mom and everything. So kind of gives you that sense of how those small communities are. And, um, and just, you know, I think I still want to, I still think it's important to shine a light on new Orleans because I think people kind of forget about, you know, the, you know, of course Katrina came and people feel like, oh, it's better now. You know, it still hasn't, it's still not, you know, better, you know, a hundred percent of course things have improved. And of course it's, there's been a lot of progress, but it's still not what you would expect for it being so many years since the storm.
Speaker 1 00:23:06 Mm Hmm. Yeah. And, you know, and, uh, I was thinking in my, uh, when in reading too, um, I don't know if this was intentional on your part, but how this, like post-Katrina new Orleans, the devastation and whatnot, how that, like, I don't know if mirrors is the right word, but like mirrors a NY, his personal situation, like she's in a personal storm. And like, like all like, especially in the opening of the book, like, you know, this, like she is like, literally like devastated she's on the bathroom floor, you know, in this state of misery, you know? Um, so I don't know if that was intentional, but I definitely felt that connection between like, um, this post storm, new Orleans and an IO who is in this storm. Right. And trying to, uh, I guess get into, get to a post storm,
Speaker 2 00:23:55 You know, start
Speaker 1 00:23:58 Healing, um, you know yeah.
Speaker 2 00:24:01 And then you can't really fight a storm. Right. She tries to fight it and it's like, you can't fight a storm, a lost, sent the storm, you know, and you kind of just have to go with it. You know what I mean? Of course we don't want it. And she took and the same similar things that are happening to her, she's trying to like fight it or ignore it or pretend it's not happening and no, you kind of have to face it and confront it and go through it. Um, and then come out on the other side and, you know, pick up the pieces and things like that. So I think there is a connection there. Yeah. Yeah. It was really beautiful. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:31 And, you know, and, and along with thinking about the new Orleans setting, um, I noticed the different settings in the book and one of the ones that stood out to me and what, where the book opens is when she talks about the kitchen and then specifically the mesh kitchen. Um, and I just, I guess I'm wondering like, um, was that like, like how intentional was that, like, what is the, what is the significance of the kitchen you think?
Speaker 2 00:25:03 Yeah, I think, um, I'll, I'll, you know, a lot of us as young woman, we might, I'm not, well, I can't, of course not all of us, but some of us have kind of experienced that, what she had her and her mother's connection is kind of different. Cause I don't even really talk while they're cooking. They kind of just, it's kind of military in a way, you know, they kind of work around each other and they have, her mom has like these really set routines of how things are supposed to go. And Anya, she kind of just follows, you know, follows what her mom says. You know, first you have to do it like this, then you do it like this. She's got it down pat, because of course they're serving the mash. Did they have to cook all this food? Um, and you know, her mom doesn't want things, you know, she wants everything to be done the right way.
Speaker 2 00:25:40 Whereas Anya just followed along her sister, wasn't feeling this, you know, this routine and she didn't like being in the kitchen at all. And so I kind of wanted to show it, it was too full. It was kind of showing that background in that community, but also showing a nice personality and how she's kind of one of those people where, okay, you tell her, this is the way you do things. She, she tries her best to follow with that way. Um, do you think that's okay from my mom was telling me to do it this way. There's gotta be a reason for it. And so I'm going to follow the way that she says to do it. I'm not going to deviate from that recipe or, you know, and she, and she kind of thinks that's how life is going to be, that it has to learn that. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:26:21 That was, uh, I think like just, uh, like, uh, I guess like a perfect microcosm of an I is life like this kitchen, right? Like, like you said, like it's military style, mom has it down pat and it's just trying to keep up. And the big sisters side is like, I don't have time for this. And I mean, that so much in her life and her personality, like her leaving the family home, leaving the Muslim community. Right. She, she it's, it's not a place that, you know, um, she feels this for her, you know, in any way. I also found it. I was thinking about it last night, like how it's interesting that the measured kitchen is also where Naya meets Jaheed <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:27:10 And she's like meets him. And it's like, okay, it's like trying again, that recipe mentality of like, how do I move forward in these steps? Right. Um, with this, with this person in, in, in my, my space that I'm familiar in, you know, just that, that was an interesting place. And, um, also the fact that you returned to the kitchen in the end, right. In the Mo in the mother's kitchen, um, and how it is very different from her early experiences in the kitchen, it becomes a place of comfort and healing. Right. She can finally eat other cooks for her and she, you know, um, can eat the food and she gets comfort and heal in a bit the beginning of healing. Right. And some of his kitchen. So, yeah. And I think that, you know, definitely for women, like we, you know, what, we have relationships with the kitchen, right.
Speaker 1 00:28:06 Men, you know, whether, like you said, whether we grew up within or not, right. We have a relationship with it. Uh, so that was interesting to see. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, uh, just, I was thinking also about your characters, um, you have, uh, a nice world of characters. Like they're, they're all different, you know, like there's the, the, within the Magid. And then when an AIA goes to school and she's interacting with people who are the first time really who aren't Muslim or in the case of her friend, who's Muslim, but has a different, um, different upbringing and different, I guess, uh, understandings of Islam and practicing. So I'm curious, like, you know, how did you come up with this world of characters?
Speaker 2 00:29:01 I kind of wanted, as far as the Muslim characters, I kind of wanted to show there there's a differentiation, you know, there's, there's differences in, you know, we're all Muslim, but you know, a that even can read it. And he created us have different nations and tribes to know one another. And like, like you were saying, her friend that she meets in college, she's Muslim, but she has a different understanding. Like she's not as strict quote unquote. And she doesn't understand a lot of these struggles that Anne and I is having, trying to be so regimented in her practice. Um, so I just got one to show, you know, there's different ways that we can, you know, aluminate this faith or present this faith to the world. Um, you know, this was not just one way, you know what I mean? And, um, is different things that I've seen growing up and, you know, coming into the world as well.
Speaker 2 00:29:44 Um, and then the characters that choose to leave Islam as far as like, you know, an I, a sister, I just wanted to show, like, I think most people who have grown up Muslim have at least one family member who has said, you know, left the Dean or, you know, maybe left and came back or maybe it's kind of tiptoeing in and out, or, you know, kind of only comes around during Ramadan or, you know, eat and things like that. So I kind of wanted to show that that's part of the American Muslim experience as well. Um, and then, you know, there's characters who are Muslim and some of them, you know, some of the Muslim were hijab, some don't, um, you know, and there's, non-Muslims cause of course we're not, we don't live in a bubble. You know, we, we interact with, you know, non-Muslims in our professional life in school and things of that nature.
Speaker 2 00:30:29 So I feel like when she starts to meet, um, non, you know, a lot of non-Muslims more than she has in the past, she starts to kind of question some things. And I think it kind of scares her a little bit, you know, being exposed to so many different ideas and types of people and different perspectives. She's kind of forced to explain herself where she didn't have to do that before. You know, it was just, you know, why don't we do that because I'm Muslim. Well then, you know, why what's the greater meaning? And she kind of has to grapple that herself, you know?
Speaker 1 00:30:58 Yeah, yeah. Um, definitely I was thinking like what the characters, like how, uh, it was impressed in term, you know, for your writing, like how you fully like realized these characters, you know, and I think that can be difficult sometimes in, in writing. Um, like they're, they kind of in some ways fall into types, but I think you do a good job of making sure that they're not like stereotypes, right? Like, you know, you've got Colson this, you know, the love interest in the sister. Who's like, like you said, like in and out of the religion and whatnot, but, but you humanize them and, you know, like fully flesh them out so that it's not just like, oh, he's this or she's that. Right. And I was also, uh, impressed with like how each of these characters, like they challenged. And I, you know, they challenged her, her thinking and, and um, teacher things.
Speaker 1 00:31:55 Right. And it helped her to come into her own personality, you know? Um, so that was, that was impressed by that, you know, cause I've certainly read books where it's like, you know, like what they call like stock characters that, you know, where you can tell that they are meant to represent something and that's just it, you know, but that is no damn see that. Right, right. That was a good depth to all of the characters. Um, um, so speaking of characters, I'm curious if like you have a, did you have a favorite character that like that when they, when they came into the book, you enjoyed having them in there and writing about them, did you have a favorite, favorite?
Speaker 2 00:32:33 I like Colson, you know, he's a cool guy, you know, and, um, you know, I, I liked how he kind of made an I think and made her like, you know, question things because sometimes we go through life and we just, you know, follow things and we don't really question why we do certain things. And I like that she kind of, he got, he kind of forced her to look a little deeper examine why she's doing things and with the choices that she was making. And, um, I enjoyed that. Yeah. Yeah. He was,
Speaker 1 00:33:03 He was a fun character to read, like when he came in, like, you know, um, I think definitely like for readers, we can, we probably all have a Colson. Right. You know, but I was thinking like for myself and I was, it was hard to choose, but I think, I think Saudia was probably my favorite character, the sister. Um, I think I like, I guess a lot of times a character who like, she makes these mistakes, you know, she's kind of like the person in the family who, where, you know, uh, yeah, she's made, he hasn't made the best choices. Right. But I, I liked that she stuck around, you know what I'm saying? Like she could have, but she stuck around and then she showed
Speaker 2 00:33:45 Me, her sister needed her exactly. When I needed her. Yeah. She was there. So I think that says a lot about her character. It was,
Speaker 1 00:33:53 Well, I was, I think that was one of those moments where I was like,
Speaker 2 00:33:57 You know, a little choke up moment
Speaker 1 00:33:59 Because it's like, she could have absolutely just been like, you know, uh, she could have thought any number of things. Right. But it really showed who she truly was, you know, that she was a caring person and that she still cared about her family. And uh, I mean she, maybe, I don't know, maybe, um, Ms. Rider, Amani, maybe she needs to have her own book at some point, you know?
Speaker 2 00:34:20 Well, it wouldn't be happy to know. I am actually working on her story, her book, I'm working on it. Yeah. I've got a pretty far, it's going to be a shorter book. It's more like a novella, but it's kind of like about, you know, what happened to her? Like why did she leave the fold of Islam in, how were things for her after she chose, leave, leave us, you know, leave the familiarity and the comfort of, you know, that the mash stayed in the community. And, um, it kind of goes into, you know, some of the choices that she made and why she made them and, you know, does she regret things? You know? So yeah. I'm working on that right now. I think a lot of people wanted to know what happened after she left. You know, she kind of made her choices. She went off, you know, you know, why was she happy with those choices? You know? And I think, like I said, I think at least everybody knows at least one person like this who was kind of, you know, okay, I don't want to be Muslim or, you know, maybe I'll kind of come around y'all sometimes, but I'm not into all of the, you know, these rules and, you know. Right, right.
Speaker 1 00:35:16 And how do we like, keep that person like somewhat in the fold because you know, you don't just, you know, you don't throw people away, you know? Uh, you know, so like that's an important question for us to have, like for people who, um, like you said, like leave the religion, like, okay. But we still have relationships with these people. So how do we, you know, how, how can we continue to have relationships with people with, with these issues? So, yeah, she's, she's, um, dynamic character in that sense.
Speaker 2 00:35:49 Definitely. I
Speaker 1 00:35:50 Could talk about craft all day, but I'm interested as well. Like, you know, um, for you as a writer, right? Like you have these different identities, you know, as a black writer, black Muslim, like Muslim woman. Right. And, um, there can put some pressure, right. Sometimes, but sometimes it comes from, we don't even know where it comes from. Right. Maybe it comes from within, or maybe we are actually hearing from people, uh, you know, cause there's, a lot of people will, if you're, if you're not careful, they will tell you what you should be writing about. And so I'm hearing, it's like, do you ever like feel any sense of obligation to write about certain topics or to write in a certain way? Do you have that sense of obligation and how do you interact with that?
Speaker 2 00:36:36 I don't feel like we should limit ourselves. And as an artist, it is hard when people are telling you what you should do. So I try not to think about what people think. And then I just remind myself that there are 7 billion people on earth. And if you know, somebody who's going to want or need to hear this, or, you know, wants to read this. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:36:56 Yeah. You definitely have to, you know, like silence the voices, you know, you never get anything done if you don't.
Speaker 2 00:37:04 Yeah. Second guessing herself all the time or worried about what the reaction is going to be or you never going to make everybody happy either. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:37:12 Yeah. And speaking on that, right. So, because your book does cover, you know, a lot of difficult subject matter, right. Um, partner violence, infidelity, polygyny, you know, a divorce and, um, what can be seen as like, um, in the case of Johnny, he had a negative portrayal of, you know, black men, black Muslim men. So like as a writer, like how do you, how do you work within this difficult subject matter?
Speaker 2 00:37:47 I just try to keep it as real as I can, um, and keep it as, um, and, and, and still, and we talked about the different characters as varied as I could, like, you know, it's not like all the men in the book or like this, or all the women in the book were like this, or, you know, everything is negative or, you know, I kind of wanted to show both sides, you know, and believe it or not, a lot of people who've told me. They said they appreciate the fact that, you know, it touched on these things because a lot of us, like I said, there's people who are going through these situations and they don't speak on it. Or how often is it addressed in the cookbook? How often it is, you know, the mom really, um, helping out women who are going to, to them for help, you know, unfortunately those are issues that we deal with and that we don't often talk about. So I've, I've heard a lot of positive feedback, even though, you know, there's some, you can quote unquote negative things that are happening in the book. Uh, people did like the fact that it is kind of shining a light on these negative things because you know, this is life it's never going to be all perfect all the time. All beautiful all the time. There's beauty in the struggle, but we do have to highlight that struggle too. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:38:55 And I think that, um, if we're open to it, it gives us an opportunity to grow and learn. You know, like if you see something that you feel is negative, like in your, how you react to things, um, you know, that's a time when we should ask ourselves, why am I feeling so strongly about this? Maybe it, it it's pushing it. Something that I believe, you know what I'm saying? Um, like maybe if my knee jerk reaction is to defend, then why is that? You know what I'm saying? So it, it can, if we're, if we're open to it, it can give us those, those opportunities to, to learn and, and be better. And like you said, like, look out for people who are in these situations and to understand, you know, that it's more complicated than that. Right. It's never, it's not good and bad.
Speaker 1 00:39:43 Right. It's, it's, um, there's layers to it, you know? Uh, I appreciate it like w with, uh, an I, his father, like for him to, you know, open up and be like, you know, like, I, I, you know, wanted you to marry this man, you know, and recognizing like, did he like asking himself, like, you know, I'm feeling guilty and apologetic and things like that. And even with the man who he's got the knee jerk reaction to defend, but then he has to check himself and realize that, you know, that he's maybe doing more harm than good, you know? So yeah. I think you like what the characters again, balancing, balancing that out. Yeah. So you mentioned a little bit about, uh, Saturday a story, and I know this is a, this is a part one, uh, um, either witnesses, the first part. So got to talk a little bit about book two, when can we expect to, so read more about an eye and what's going to happen next?
Speaker 2 00:40:44 Yeah, definitely soon. And you know, I'm working on that. And as like I said, Saudia story too. Um, so I kinda Saudia stories kind of like to bridge the gap between the two books. Um, cause you know, it takes, the writing process does take a while, but, um, yeah. I'm hoping to get that out too. And I always want to hear, people's like, okay, what's your, what are your expectations? What do you think is going to happen in part two? I like to ask people that. So what do you think?
Speaker 1 00:41:10 I have a thought, but I don't want to give anything away for people who haven't read it yet. So I might, I might have to tell you my own
Speaker 2 00:41:17 Time. Okay. Cause it just kind of like, well, cause you know, you don't, of course you never gonna meet everybody's expectations, but I always wonder like, okay, so what do you think is going to happen? And they'll give me, you know, different ideas. Like I want to see Colson come back. They'll
Speaker 1 00:41:31 That's what I was going to say. I was like, I took my Shahada,
Speaker 2 00:41:34 Like, Hey, that's what people always tell me. Like, I don't know what's going to happen, but I know Colson is going to be back. Right. We'll see, give the people what they want. Okay. Right.
Speaker 1 00:41:47 Uh, foam off. Um, uh, so yeah, just I'll close it out with, you know, since you are a writer and I noticed there's probably people listening who are like, I want to be a writer, you know, I want to do what you've done or, you know, so do you have any advice for, for people who, who want to write?
Speaker 2 00:42:09 Yeah, I would just say, just keep writing. Um, you know, cause like the first time you write something, it's probably not going to be the best writing that you did. Don't let that stop. You like the more that it's like, anything else that's like training or, you know, running, you know, the more that you do it, the better you're going to get at it, you know, don't be, don't be scared of criticism. Um, as long as it's constructive and people are not just like, well, you know, they'll almost be like, I hated it. But people who actually ever giving you willing to give you constructive criticism of how you can improve and also read a lot because the more that you read, the more you're going to be able to. Okay. How do I transition? How do I set a scene? And you know, just give you a more of a very background. I kind of pull from when it comes to crafting your own stories in, you know, your own books, if that's what you are, what you're interested in and don't be afraid to take classes and learn and things of that nature too.
Speaker 1 00:42:59 Awesome. Yeah. So you gotta keep writing and you gotta keep reading, read and read why they pass. Awesome. All right. Well thank you for tuning in to this episode of on the square real talk on race and Islam in the Americas especial podcast series brought to you by SAP, yellow square and the maiden we give thanks to our special guest today, Amani and Cinco Jabbar. You can find more information about what we discussed, including links and more by visiting staphylo square.com/on the square or the maiden.com/podcast. Our theme music was created by phonetic on beats. So now I'm at AECOM and thank you for listening.
