Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:08 Asum. I'm Latasha Russo, executive director of Salo Square. And welcome to On the Square, a special podcast brought to you by Salo Square in collaboration with the Meine, where every month Salo squad get on the square and into some real talk about race and Islam in the Americas.
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Asam Laham and welcome to the latest edition of our podcast on the Square. I am Dr. Nisa Muhammad, and I am the news director for Estop Alo Square. I am so excited. This is my first time hosting the podcast, and I have with me the amazing Yaya Nui, and we are going to be talking about his new podcast, the Jabbari Lincoln files. So if you can hear the enthusiasm in my voice, let me tell you, it pales in comparison to what you'll have when you start listening to this podcast. The first time I heard it, I was blown away, but I will give no spoilers. So let's start. Welcome to our podcast.
Speaker 3 00:01:11 Thank you so much, Salaam Lacomb. Uh, I am really happy to be here and it's great to be talking to you.
Speaker 2 00:01:18 So let's start off with this. Who is Jabbari Lincoln?
Speaker 3 00:01:23 Jabbari Lincoln is a fictional character. So let me start out by saying that Jabbari Lincoln, in the story of the Jabbari Lincoln Files is he starts out as the CIA's top financial analyst, and he happens to be a Muslim. He is an African-American Muslim, he's from Detroit, and he made his way as a, uh, someone who loved mathematics. He went from inner city Detroit to m I t and eventually end up being an analyst where it was his job to deal with all types of financial intelligence issues. And where we find our hero in the beginning of story is he has stumbled upon a really weird situation. He's been in the agency for about 10 years, and then he finds out that there's suspicion about him, his character, his loyalty to the United States. And what happens is a interesting plot unravels and he gets thrown into a very dangerous situation.
Speaker 2 00:02:27 So you already shattered so many myths about black Muslims. <laugh>, ok. I mean, except the one coming from inner city Detroit. That's a fact. We do have a lot of black there. But he goes to mit, he becomes an analyst. He loves math. I mean, whatcha trying to tell people?
Speaker 3 00:02:45 Well, I mean, I think what, what what we're, what we're doing in, in the podcast and in the story is we are trying to take a, um, a situation we're trying to put a face of Muslim life of, of the, you know, of, of the sort of the black experience. And we're trying to take it away from the stereotypes. And we're trying to bring it into a real, I would say, a real mainstream genre, which is honestly a spy thriller. It's a spy thriller, it's a mystery. And um, and actually people might not know, you know, you have Muslims of all walks of life, you know, Muslim, African-American, Muslims in particular in all walks of life within the government, within our society. Uh, and that's, that's a fact. It's a fact that I understand very well. And so, even though some people might think like, oh, wow, that's, that's weird. That's, uh, you know, <laugh>, he's, he's black and he's working for the CIA and he's a Muslim. You know, we are in all facets of American life, all facets of professions. And, um, and we thought it would be nice to, to really to bring that, not on screen cuz it's not on screen, but to put that on the podcast.
Speaker 2 00:03:56 So what is your background? Because there are so many details in this podcast, so many, and I don't wanna give away any spoiling. There's so many details about his life, his work, you know, he's, it's an international spy thriller. I mean, what is your background to be able to, to have all of this knowledge? Because for a while I thought, well, maybe this is just imaginary until I heard some other people talking about the ro and I got scared. I was like, oh my God, what? So what is your background?
Speaker 3 00:04:23 So, so for, actually let me start more on the personal side, right? The, the cuz that I think that's where, you know, that that's probably what's most important. You know, I am myself, you know, I'm an African-American Muslim. I, um, happened to embrace Islam in, in the nineties in my college years. And I grew up in California. Uh, and interestingly, my background, my mo my mother is from, from here, you know, she was, uh, uh, mostly grew up in the Los Angeles area. And my father is actually from, from West Africa. And they met in college in California in the, I guess in the seventies you would say. So, but I was born and raised in the us born and raised in, in California. And, um, and personally sort of found Islam as I, like I said, uh, in, in the nineties in college. So that's my own personal background.
Speaker 3 00:05:07 I'm not from Detroit, you know, that's why I say the fiction character is not me. However, I will say, um, you know, I drew on experiences that I ha have had educationally and professionally. Um, you know, I am nothing like Jabbari Lincoln. Jabbari Lincoln is a math whi <laugh>, you know, he is, he is, he's, uh, the top, uh, analyst. But I've worked in, um, I don't wanna, you know, people hold onto their hats. But, you know, I worked in the national security area. Um, I worked in intelligence for several years, um, myself. And that's actually another, maybe that's another conversation, another story within itself. But I worked in, in that environment, um, for several years. Saw, um, you know, had great experiences and, uh, and for the most part and saw some of the things that were challenging. And the, the story, what I put in the story is not to sensationalize or anything, but to tell a good story, which, which is realistic in some ways.
Speaker 3 00:05:59 I mean, it draws on some things that are very real. Um, and of course it's a, it's a spy thriller. So of course, uh, you know, it's some things that are, that are not real and that are very, very fictional. I mean, the, the whole plot is, is, is a fictional story. But, uh, but I myself, uh, over, you know, I left government years ago. I haven't been in the government for about, I don't know, 12 years or so, or 11 years. And so, um, one of my areas of focus, I I work, uh, in the, the area of financial technology. And so one of the things, again, without no spoilers, but no spoilers and no spoilers, but I will say that the story as it evolves, it's the story of a family man, again, Muslim. He's married, he had, they have three children. He's, you know, in the DC area, you know, working for the cia.
Speaker 3 00:06:45 And when his life gets, uh, sort of up upended because of these questions about his loyalty to America, um, he gets involved in this situation, which takes him around the world. It does take him to Nigeria. I can say that it's not, not, not a, a big spoiler. And it takes him into this world of cyber finance and cyber espionage. And those are things that I'm actually drawing on. Things that I've observed through my professional work, things that I, uh, see on the horizon, especially around finance and technology. There's a bit of a, a story there about cryptocurrency. Um, that's something that I deal with in my own professional life as well. So, you know, I, I thought it would be interesting, you know, you could teach, expose people to things that are very academic or, or in the news, but, you know, that could be boring. You know, when you talk about Bitcoin, crypto, not everybody's into all those technicalities. So what I wanted to do is really just create an entertaining story, but then draw on some of these things that I'm seeing in the e either in the news or that that, that are happening in the world and to put them into a spy plot.
Speaker 2 00:07:45 And it is such a spy plot. <laugh>, I can't be giving away any spoilers. And I want our listeners to know, if you have not downloaded it yet, go to wherever you find your podcast and look for the jabbari Lincoln files. I mean, actually look for the jabbari Lincoln files. Start at the beginning and you'll be captivated to go all the way through. So now did you have to do any research? I know you talked a little bit about your background and having knowledge about the issues that are contained in the podcast. Mm-hmm. What other kinda research did you have to do in order to put mm-hmm. To put this all together?
Speaker 3 00:08:15 Yeah. Um, I did. I mean, it's interesting. You know, it's an interesting process because, you know, writing a fictional story, it's like you have the general idea. So I had the general idea of, of what, what really was the character. You know, the, I think the main thing in the story is you really have to focus on the character. That's what people want, are interested in. So really that was my central focus. Who is this? Who is this man? Who is Jabari Lincoln? Um, what's his background? Where does he come from? And hopefully in the story you get that you get a sense of here's someone, he has a background. You learned a little bit about his family history growing up in Detroit. Um, so I had that, that was the core. Now when I thought about when writing the, the, the plot development, yeah, I had to do, I had to research some specific thing.
Speaker 3 00:09:00 So, you know, again, without sort of spoiling anything, the story takes place on, you know, like three continents. There's a huge portion of it that is on the African continent. As you listen, you will, you will hear some bits of African history that are woven in. You will go to parts of Nigeria that, uh, again, no, no spoiler, but there's a part of Nigeria where we spent a lot of time. Um, I had to do research about that part of Nigeria, cuz that's a part of Nigeria. I've been to the general part, but I haven't been to that particular city, which when, you know, I don't know if that's a surprise or not, cuz I had described the city so much in the, I've never been there, but I do know I have, I have friends.
Speaker 2 00:09:38 It's shock to me. <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:09:41 I know, I remember
Speaker 2 00:09:42 Everywhere get talking about
Speaker 3 00:09:43 Before. Um, I have been to some, some of the other places. There's a place in Asia, which I have been to, I have been to, that's one of the reasons why I chose it. So part of it was that, you know, finding certain things and, and, and doing my own research. And also because, because this character is smarter than the author, right? The character is a financial math whiz. He's so, he's smarter than the author. So I don't know what the character knows, but there will be some things, like for example, um, here's a, here's a perfect example. Um, so he's a mathematician and he's a finance guy. So I had to learn about some things in mathematics that would be interesting. And in, in episode one, it's not a spoiler. It's interesting, there's this one aside where, where Jabari Lincoln talks about Benford's law.
Speaker 3 00:10:26 And Benford's law is something I had, I think I I I learned about it. So at some point is a, um, it's like a, a theory in science or in mathematics that when you get large amounts of numbers, like, like, uh, exponentially numbers that can increase. When you talk about large populations that more often than one, the digit which comes up the most is, is the number one. Uh, which is like an interesting mathematical concept. So that's something that I didn't know that on my own, but as I looked into mathematics, I found these interesting concepts that I can then weave into the story.
Speaker 2 00:10:59 You know, one of the things that I liked about the podcast is that Jabbar Lincoln, even though he goes to m i t, he works with the ccia. You know, he has all of these contact access to a whole nother world. He still keeps his blackness mm-hmm. <affirmative>, A lot of times people think that when people get into these upper echelons of the government or life and, you know, they tend to lose their blackness even though he is a black Muslim. You know? And I love the connection that he has with his wife, with his children. You know, speak a little bit about how, if there was challenges in terms of allowing him to maintain his blackness.
Speaker 3 00:11:34 Well, you know, it, it, I don't think it was a challenge for the story, right? Because, you know, I purposefully wanted to craft a story where you would see and connect with this family. And it was very important for, for me, um, the state really of, of the black family, if you think about it right now, in our communities today, we don't have have enough, uh, strong role models that you see presented, you know, of a black male father, husband taking care of his children. Not, you know, not in the drug game. <laugh>, you know, not in the gang game, right? You, you don't see nothing. Not
Speaker 2 00:12:06 In the rap game,
Speaker 3 00:12:06 Not in the, he's not in the, he's not in, yeah, he's not in the rap game. Now. He may have been around elements and he, he may even have, you know, elements of his family that have dealt with that, right? Like, like you would expect, right? You, you would've expect that all of us, you know, we we're gonna have some connections with some of those things cause we're, we're, we're a regular people. Um, but I wanted to make sure that this would be, first of all, as a spy thriller. I'm thinking of it through a Muslim mindset where this character is also, he is a man of faith. So he's not gonna be like James Bond. He's not gonna be going to the, you know, he's not gonna be doing what James Bond does. I mean, he might do some of the action stuff, but he's not gonna be like James Bond.
Speaker 3 00:12:47 He's not gonna be a womanizer, he's not gonna be going to the bar, et cetera, et cetera. He may, may, if he goes to the bar, he's not gonna be, you know, drinking a martini, shaking, not stirred, right? He's not gonna be drinking a martini at all. <laugh>. So he, he is not like James Bond, but, but it's still the spice genre. And I wanted to be able to say, you know what, as Muslim artists, creatives, writers, we should be able to create stories that do, um, fit into the mainstream genre, but bring our morality to the story, right? So everyone is watching a story or listening to the story, and there is a moral component. I mean, it's not a hard message, you know, try to hit you over the head saying, oh, you need to do this, don't do that. But because there's, I think, a moral background to, or a moral framing to it, then the, the Islam comes out that comes out that way. And, and also the concern of, you know, hey, you know, the African-American family need, we need a family unit. We need that for us to advance. So the story is going to have that,
Speaker 2 00:13:44 You know, I think it's really beautiful that in this story, a lot of times when people watch movies or dramas or whatever it is about Muslims, the Muslim character tends to have some level of uncomfortability with they're Islam, you know, they're challenged by it, they wanna hide it, or they're not acting like a Muslim. But this is the rare production where this main character is totally comfortable, not only with his blackness, but also with his Islam. He's totally comfortable being a Muslim because that's who his life is. And I just wanna kind of find out why, why do you think that was so easy for you to do?
Speaker 3 00:14:19 Well, I mean, hopefully I am comfortable <laugh>. I, I hope you know, you know, God willing, I'm comfortable in, in my own skin and in my faith. Um, and having been through, again, coming to this religion myself, converting obviously, and going through being in all these other, these different places and these different dimensions of American society, you know, I think it, it was important because I think many of us as people of faith, we see, when we watch, uh, TV and movies and even in, in books, we don't really, we don't see that. I think there's often so much a focus on conflict. Like, oh, you gotta be conflicted in your religion and your faith and your, your identity. Um, and of course there are elements of that, but that's not the story. Many, many, if not most of us, we are living our lives proud of who we are, comfortable with, who we are and striving we're not.
Speaker 3 00:15:10 And, and also, you know, the other thing is I wanted this character to be someone who actually this, I think this comes out in the character. He, because he's not focused so much on what people think about him. That's why he's comfortable. Cause cuz he, he acknowledges that he came from a very interesting background. When you learn about his family history, you learn about his parents and then you learn, you know, he went to m mit so he, he's experienced being like a unique sort of identity, but he realized that you can't focus so much on what somebody thinks about you or their stereotypes. Cuz if you do, you'll be thinking about them. So the only way I think for him to advance, he could, he cannot be the CIA's top financial analyst. If he's, if he was always obsessed about what do people think about his, his his skin or his background or his religion, he would not be able to be who he is.
Speaker 3 00:15:57 So the character has to be, and I think also, um, sorry for this long-winded answer, but I, but I'll say this, especially for, for I think the listeners, you know, especially for any listeners that are young out there, students especially, I think we have to have role models. And the role models have to be comfortable in who they are. We can't, we, you know, our identity needs to be that we are strong in, in what we are and how we present to the world. We can't have everything being about, oh, I'm, I'm so, you know, I, I, I, you know, things are so bad for me, et cetera, et cetera. So that's what we wanted to present with this story.
Speaker 2 00:16:30 And I think you do that admirably. So now why, why tell this story and a podcast for me? Mm-hmm. I mean, this could be a book and I would still be captivated. I I read murder mysteries and non-fiction. Mm-hmm. I mean fiction, I, uh, I'm an avid reader. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But why a podcast?
Speaker 3 00:16:46 You know, that was more a personal choice based on the accessibility of podcasts as a media, um, or as a medium. And also I will say that, um, well the book choice, the idea of a book is not removed from this whole project. Uh, I actually would like to turn this into, into a book or other volumes of the story into books. But the thing that I loved about podcasting is, you know, the way that the podcast, this podcast works is it's an audio experience. I, I, I hope in that the narrator's narrating the story and you are sort of drawn into it. It's not, I always tell people this is not an audiobook, cuz they think, oh, it's a story and you're reading it. No, it's not, it's not like an audiobook. I mean, there is a narrator, there's a narrator, but it's more like there's, because there's background music, you know, I, I call it, it's really the sound design.
Speaker 3 00:17:39 So when you listen to an episode, it's like you're really listening to it. And I thought, you know what, who knows if I would get a publisher? You know, if I, you know, nowadays, you know, people, the publisher might be like, oh no, no, you're gonna change this and do all I'm, I don't wanna go through that. I, hey, podcasting as you know, cause we're podcasting right here. It's direct to the audience. And I should mention, you know, I, I have some experience in production. You know, I, when I was in college, I had my own radio show and I always used to love interviewing people and then having music in the background or playing. I would play certain speeches. Sometimes this was in the nineties, you know, I would play speeches and I have like, you know, hip hop beats in the background, you know, that's what we used to do, right? We used to do all this a con, you know, raising consciousness. Yes. And I felt like, you know what? I can do that today. I, I can create a soundtrack and then write the story and then package it, and then it goes straight to your, to your ears.
Speaker 2 00:18:28 So now, is that how it was present? The soundtrack was created and then you wrote to it because I'm thinking that there's a chase scene and I was like, on the edge of my seat, like, oh my God, oh my god. And everything was so real. I felt like I was, it went right with praying to all. I mean, that's just how real it was for me. Wow. And so, I mean, I'm just wondering like, you know, what did the soundtrack come first or the storyline? I mean, how did you put that all together? I mean, it's just riveting
Speaker 3 00:18:58 It, well, thing I will say it's, it's a combination because when I write, I usually am writing with some sort of sound in the background. Now it may be the actual sound. So especially those first episodes, cuz I created those soundtracks and then I would write to them. So I would have that playing in the background while I'm on my computer drafting it. So, so in essence, I, the, the sound is sort of a giving me the mood as I write. So it's sort of combined. Some of the later ones I may not have it because sometimes I, I, I created some of the music later, but still, I would often have some sort of sound. Some, you know, I'm actually big into, sometimes when I, when I write articles for work, I listen to music scores. So take mo or move from movies and there are certain movie movie scores, which are just so great to write to because it's like, like sort of just, I dunno, helps me focus, I think. And so that would be part of the process is having the music to set the mood while I would write.
Speaker 2 00:19:55 That's amazing. So who helps you do this? Who is on the Jabbar Legal Files team? Yeah. Who are the people that help you put all this together?
Speaker 3 00:20:04 Yeah, it was a group effort in terms of the support that, that I had. Um, because what I did was, the longest process was the writing and drafting process. So what I did, uh, in the beginning, uh, from chapter one or episode one is I, I use, uh, family and friends. I had, uh, some these relatives and some close family friends who read the first chapter and gave me advice and feedback and, you know, I thank them in, in, in our credits. Um, so a host of family and friends and even the narrator, we have two narrators. So I do some of the narration, and then we have another person narrating, which I mean, oh, I guess I can say is actually a, a family member. My sister-in-law, uh, far Abdul Towa Brown is thenar the, the, the woman narrator that you'll hear throughout the ep, the series as well.
Speaker 3 00:20:50 Um, why? Because I mean, you know, uh, sh she had a, has a very good voice and, and, and it goes very well. And she sent a sample. It was no nepotism, <laugh>. I asked her to audition, send me <laugh>, and then I was like, this is great, we could work with this. And then, so she was part of that. Um, and then others that I consulted with, I would say I, I consulted with, um, people who have expertise in some of the areas that come up and I actually worked with them. I said, Hey, could you listen to this? Give me feedback. Um, multiple people gave me feedback, um, you know, too many to name. They're all in the credits. But basically what I did was I tapped my network of people and I asked them to help me as I developed the series.
Speaker 2 00:21:30 So what advice would you have as we wind down for any person listening who said, you know what, I have a story to tell. I would do put put it to a podcast. What advice would you give them? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:21:40 Um, I would say go direct. Just like how, uh, how I was saying how, how I did with this podcast go direct in the idea of, you know, take advantage of the media that is out there, especially for stories. I think this is a growth area. Podcasting is accessible. I mean, some people say, oh, there's so many podcasts, which is true. There's so much content out there. But if, if you have a story, I would say try it out. And probably the best example of of why you should just go for it is I'll, I'll mention one thing, which is, so this was actually my second podcast, um, for a number of years from about 2015 to, I think 2018 or so, I had another podcast called Rhythm of Wisdom, and it's still up. And what that was was it was similar to the Jabbar Lincoln files and that it was a storytelling podcast, but those stories were real, and I was narrating them with music.
Speaker 3 00:22:30 Um, and it's not like episode, it's not the same sort of thing where like, you end one episode and go to the next. It's kind of like different vignettes and there's some common themes. But when I look at that, I, I enjoyed that podcast. It was not every week. It was kind of stretched over time. But my example for, for folks there is that I did that for about four years and then, you know, it, it, it, it, it, maybe it wasn't the biggest hit, but it was my practice. It was my proving ground. Then when I decided to do these Jabari Lincoln files, I had already had those years of practice. So now I was ready to do it, I think, to take it to a higher level. So get your feet wet, get out there, put something out, get feedback from people, but don't wait, don't wait to learn how to be the best writer. Learn, you know, put yourself out there and then learn as you're, as you're writing and as you're growing,
Speaker 2 00:23:13 Will there be a season two for Jabbari Lincoln files? All your listening, all your fans wanna know, <laugh>, what's gonna happen next?
Speaker 3 00:23:20 Insha la uh, uh, that is my intention. Uh, season one has ended, but season two, uh, is in the works and I hope to be able to update more on that. I mean, I guess I would just say, uh, for folks to, to get ready to subscribe, listen to all of season one so that you'll be ready for season two.
Speaker 2 00:23:39 I think I've listened to season one three, maybe another fourth, fifth. I just love it just that much. Wow. Lemme just thank you for your time and your patience, and that's working together on this podcast. And I'm an avid fan. Please let us know when season two comes out. Thank you again. I'll so much the Jabbar Lincoln folks with those listening, download it. If you listen to podcast get, I mean like get the Jabari Lincoln Files is amazing.
Speaker 3 00:24:05 And I should say, so people know that Jabbari is J A B B A R I, that's two Bs Lincoln, like the president, the Jabbari Lincoln file subscribe.
Speaker 2 00:24:14 Anything quickly about that name while you selected that name? Jabari Lincoln. Uh,
Speaker 3 00:24:18 The name Jabari
Speaker 2 00:24:19 Lincoln. The reason,
Speaker 3 00:24:21 Maybe we save that for our next conversation, except I <laugh>, it's,
Speaker 2 00:24:26 We can absolutely save that.
Speaker 3 00:24:27 I will, I will. So maybe I'll give one I 1 1 1 little nugget. Jabari the first name. I won't, I won't say too much about it. It kind of just, it was a longer story. It was, it was a name I thought of, uh, wild Back and, and I liked it and decided to use it. But, um, so I have an influence, which was, there was a mystery writer whose books I used to read back in, you know, like 20, 20 some years ago named Jeffrey Deaver. If any of you all remember the movie with Denzel Washington called The Bone Collector from the nineties. Yes. So The Bone Collector was a mystery novel, detective novel. And that was the first, it was made based off of a book by this author Jeffrey Dever, who has all these great thrillers, mystery thrillers, and the main character of that detective, his name is Lincoln Rhymes or Lincoln Rhymes or Lincoln Rhyme. But anyway, his name is Lincoln. And I always, I think that that may, you know, I maybe that's that influence that I love that detective and, and I loved his writing style that he, he, he would have you learn about things even though he's taken you through like a murder mystery. So Jeffrey Deaver, really his link, the Lincoln Rhyme novels, that was a big influence on my own writing style.
Speaker 2 00:25:32 Amazing. Thank you again for your time. I look forward to season two with Jabbari Lincoln Files. I look forward to hearing more about what you do. Thank you again, so much Assalam. And stay tuned. Please get the jabbari Lincoln files.
Speaker 3 00:25:46 Thank you. Thank you so much.
