Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:08 Oleum. I'm Latasha Russo, executive director of Salo Square, and welcome to On the Square, a special podcast brought to you by Salo Square, and collaboration with the Madine, where every month Salo squad get on the square and into some real talk about race and Islam in the Americas. Most people of color recognize that our country's legal and justice system is severely broken. One of my favorite novels is Just Mercy by Brian Stevenson, who is the executive Director of the Equal Justice Initiative. The book was also made into a movie, which stars Michael B. Jordan. You know, movies are, um, never really as good as the book, but it did a good job of capturing the essence of what the novel represented. I encourage you to check it out, um, either the book or the movie if you haven't already done so. But basically, I love the novel because it exposed the frailties of our appellate court system and focused on the humanness of people who have or currently sit in prison awaiting appeals.
Speaker 1 00:01:11 It also emphasizes how extremely important those courts are within our judicial system, because they can literally assist with determining whether someone lives or dies, remains a prisoner, or is granted freedom. But that's not all. Appellate attorneys and judges make decisions that affect all aspects of our personal lives, from voting to policing religious freedoms to education, healthcare to immigration. And last year, I had the pleasure of meeting my guest today, who is just as equally passionate about the appellate court system and has carved out a space for herself in that process. She's Java Khan is the founder and executive director of the Appellate Project, which is a nonprofit organization that seeks to empower law students of color to thrive in the appellate field. Java's interest in the law stems from her passion for civil rights advocacy after clerking for the Honorable Michael p in the district court of the district of Connecticut, Java worked at the law firm of Patterson Belknap Webb, and Tyler, l l p, where she maintained a heavy pro bono practice focusing on racial and religious discrimination claims.
Speaker 1 00:02:22 She then served a senior staff attorney and Muslim advocates where she successfully combined litigation and public campaign strategies in cases ranging from public accommodation claims to religious land use lawsuits. Java received her Bachelor of Arts in Political Science in Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies from New York University, and her Juris Doctorate from Columbia Law School, where she was a Harlan Fists Stone Scholar. She's a member of the Edward Koch Appellate Inn of Court, and former president of the Capital Area Muslim Bar Association and recognition of her work Java has received the Echoing Green Fellowship, Roddenberry Fellowship, American Express Next Gen Fellowship, the South Asian Bar Association of DC's, public Sector Trailblazer Award, and the Asian American Bar Association of DC's Community Appreciation Award.
Speaker 2 00:03:19 Oh,
Speaker 1 00:03:20 So after I say all that, you're, you're the second person I've interviewed on this podcast that actually, after reading their bio, made me feel like I needed to get my life together. So I thank you for that, I guess. But I, I truly thank you for agreeing to be a guest on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 00:03:39 It's truly my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 00:03:42 So I read all of those lovely accolades in your bio, which is wonderful, and as women of color, our accomplishments definitely need to be appreciated and amplified as much as possible, because I just don't think we do that enough. But before we get into the work that you do with your staff at the Appellate Project, I would just like to know more about you and if you could share more about who you are and what sparks your passion or your interests and to, uh, committing to this type of work.
Speaker 2 00:04:14 Sure. I think it's hard to answer that question without sharing a bit more about what led me to the law in the first place. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I grew up in rural Arizona and didn't know any lawyers, but really got interested in the law because of nine 11 and the impact that that had on my community growing up. I was really curious about who was making these laws because it felt obvious that they had no nexus to my community, um, and that our voice was not being included, and that had a real impact on us. So I was fortunate to have parents who encouraged me to think about these questions and to place them in a framework broader than ourselves. And so to read history and especially American history and doing that, of course, um, is like pulling a thread. You just learn more and more.
Speaker 2 00:05:14 And it really made me look at law as an avenue for change because I just saw this pattern of marginalized communities going to the courts to try and assert their basic rights. And so that was my interest in going to law school. And once I got there, I felt pretty lost. I didn't know how to pursue the type of work I wanted to do. I didn't meet other Muslims and certainly not Muslims who were lawyers working on behalf of the community at that time. There really wasn't much of a market for that. And so I, it took me a while to figure out how to get there. And so it was really, when I finally started doing that work work a few years into my career, that was my first taste of appellate work. So up until then, I had been doing mostly trial work, because that was all that I knew.
Speaker 2 00:06:07 It was all that I really had heard about, and appellate work was just totally different. It's a different rhythm to it. It's a lot of thinking deeply about complex legal issues that have an enormous impact. You can make a huge difference in you're really trying to shape laws at large. And I found it so exciting, and as, as one of my colleagues put it, it's like you're playing a game of checkers and then realize there's a game of chess. And I felt pretty frustrated because I wished I had known about appellate work earlier. It's something that I would have pursued earlier on in my career and made a lot of dec decisions differently. The other thing that really struck me was the lack of diversity in appellate spaces. So when you think about appellate work, your case is going up on appeal, and that's pretty unique because unlike trial courts, there's no juries in appellate courts.
Speaker 2 00:07:01 It's just appellate attorneys who are bringing the cases forward. They're deciding which arguments to present how to shape them. Oftentimes those strategies are developed years into the making. And then you have appellate judges who have the final say in interpreting those laws and deciding what those laws mean and how they apply to all of us. And not infrequently, those attorneys end up becoming the judges. So when you don't have representation of our communities in those spaces, what you get is a system that is disproportionately impacting communities of color, even though we are completely unrepresented in the space. And that means our lived experiences are not included there. Our perspectives aren't. And you feel that in the rulings that come out. And so I was really struck by that lack of representation, and it was sort of connecting those two dots of why didn't I, and so many law students of color, especially those who are first generation, know about appellate work earlier on, and how can we get a lot more people from diverse communities in these spaces so that there are more of us doing this work, uh, as attorneys and hopefully as judges.
Speaker 2 00:08:14 And so that left me to leave my job as a lawyer and start the Appellate project.
Speaker 1 00:08:21 Wow. So when you were talking about how you learned about this work, I wanted to know, since it is difficult to be exposed to the appellate court system and, uh, as a lawyer at least, how, how did you learn about it and how did you get into it?
Speaker 2 00:08:39 Yeah, so it's interesting because in law school, a lot of the cases you read are appellate cases, but it's not framed in that way. And it's not really taught, Hey, appellate, being an appellate lawyer is a career path, and here's the steps that you would take. I often think about medical school, for example. They wouldn't not tell you that surgery isn't an option and how to become a surgeon, right? You would know the different types of medicine, these different areas of practice, and you could choose the one that you wanna pursue. So law school is strange in that way, in that they don't really spell out these different career paths. So you kind of have to figure it out on your own. And that's what happened for me. It was not until I was years into practice, and I sort of stumbled upon it that I realized this was an area of practice.
Speaker 2 00:09:25 And I think, you know, in the appellate project, we work with hundreds of appellate lawyers, and it's very common that they learned about appellate work in a very happenstance way. Also, it just, some person happened to tell them, Hey, this is a career path, and sort of explain what the steps are to get there. But, um, one thing we're trying to do at the Appellate project, or tap as we call it, is make sure that students, especially law students of color, first generation students, those who are outside of these networks, where that info is typically shared, uh, are aware about appellate work and know the steps they, that it takes to get there and have access to those resources.
Speaker 1 00:10:03 Can you explain, you know, I kind of slightly introduced it in the beginning, and then you spoke about it more throughout your introduction of, of who you're and how you came to be in this place. But can you kind of just give a overview of, of what an appellate court does for people who may not know? Um, because I, I think as just a layman, um, we think of the Supreme Court as, you know, one of those appellate courts, but there it's bigger than that. It's, it's much, you know, nuanced than that. So if you could maybe explain a little bit more about that process.
Speaker 2 00:10:40 Absolutely. So, like you said, the Supreme Court is the highest appellate court in the country, but every state has its own Supreme Courts and what we call intermediary appellate courts. And on the federal level, it's the same thing. We have circuit courts. Um, and so for example, if you are in the ninth Circuit court of appeals, you're living in Arizona, California, Oregon, all of those states are covered by decisions that that circuit makes. And so the country is really governed by all of these appellate courts on the state and federal level. And when you appeal a case, if you're in state, co state court, you appeal it up to the, um, state intermediary, uh, appellate court, and then you can appeal further to the state Supreme Court. Similarly, on the federal level, if you start out in federal court, you can appeal to one of the circuit courts, and then the highest is the Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 00:11:36 And the Supreme Court, of course, has a huge impact on us, but it only accepts roughly 2% of the cases that are appealed to it. So the reality is that most appellate cases end up in one of those other appellate courts, and these are the final decision makers. This is our third branch of government. They are shaping what our laws mean, and they decide how it impacts all of us. So if something comes out of Congress or the executive and there's, um, a lawsuit filed, those courts have the final say on what they mean. And you can think of pretty much any issue, immigration, healthcare, campaign, finance, you know, religion, uh, uh, just name it. And appellate courts are deciding those issues. Abortion is most abortion. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, we hear a lot about the Supreme Court, but really there's so many important cases every day on really fundamental issues that are being decided by appellate courts around the country.
Speaker 2 00:12:33 So it's, it's hard to overstate the impact that these courts have. And so the attorneys who are the ones presenting these cases and who have significant influence on bringing the cases up, shaping the arguments, deciding which arguments to present and why. Um, and the judges who get to interpret and decide what these words mean, right? Essentially we're ascribing meaning to words. There's so many interpretations you can give. And so they're the ones who get to make that final decision. That's a lot of power that both groups have, and that's why these courts are so important.
Speaker 1 00:13:10 You know, I'm slightly familiar with the justice system, but not, um, in, in the, in the appellate court. And so I was looking before this podcast about, you know, just learning a a bit more, and basically the cases that are heard, they're hearing them so that they can determine if the ruling was valid or correct. Is that, is that, am I correct in saying that?
Speaker 2 00:13:35 That's right. So that's your chance to correct something that you feel was incorrectly decided below. And so it's really oftentimes your last chance to get a fair hearing on an issue that maybe didn't go your way at trial court. And so it's really, really important to the individuals who are appealing to have justice served, and because of the way appellate courts work in that they impact large jurisdictions. So like I was saying, the federal system, for example, is broke up into circuits where each circuit impacts the rulings. In the ninth Circuit, for example, let's say you appeal, you're from Arizona and you appeal up to the ninth Circuit. That ruling isn't just impacting you or other people in Arizona. It's also impacting all the other states that are within that circuit. That ruling applies to all of them. And same with the state Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 00:14:34 If they make a ruling, it applies to everybody in the state. So you're talking about a huge impact on justice served for the individual who's appealing, but also the rights of all those people within that jurisdiction. The other thing I'll say is appellate courts talk to each other. So let's say an issue goes up on appeal in one court, and they've never faced that issue before. They're going to look at what other appellate courts have done in similar situations, and that often will be persuasive to them in their own ruling. Sometimes they won't meet, reach the same decision, sometimes they will rely heavily on that. It just depends. But, um, they're all working, um, sort of in conjunction with each other. So you can't really view this in isolation. All of these courts are sort of speaking to each other and it's a conversation shaping our laws around the country.
Speaker 1 00:15:25 And I could see why that is very important to that diversity in there, because if you have judges and lawyers who are making these impactful decisions, and they only have one perspective and have these biases that they use to, to frame that, it could be very detrimental to, um, you know, all of society. Um, but depending on where, where it's taking place, that particular district or that state as well.
Speaker 2 00:15:56 Exactly. So just to give an example of that, qualified immunity is a doctrine that we hear about where, uh, basically the law enforcement is shielded from liability or being held responsible in a lot of their actions. And so in a lot of cases of police violence, for example, you'll hear about protests and questions about why police wasn't held accountable. Well, there's this doctrine, qualified immunity that shields them from so much of what they do. That's a doctrine that started in and is upheld by appellate courts. It was started by the Supreme Court of the United States, and it's been consistently upheld in appellate courts around the country. You could imagine if our appellate system was more diverse and in particularly racially diverse and included more, uh, black appellate attorneys and judges who represent the community that is disproportionately impacted by police violence, that, uh, qualified immunity doctrine might look very different or not exist. And so when you have that absence of diverse perspectives and lived experience, you really see it in the rulings and doctrines that are produced, and it has a very real life impact on communities.
Speaker 1 00:17:13 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's very powerful, what you just stated, because as someone in the black community, that particular example that you gave really affects my community. And if we're not sitting at the table having a voice and bringing our lived experiences to that, that platform, then, you know, it will most likely continue in the same vein that it's going now.
Speaker 2 00:17:39 Exactly. You know, and I, I can offer one other example, um, that sort of really resonated with me in, in starting the appellate project when I was litigating cases on behalf of the Muslim community. Um, one of the issues that came up was the Muslim ban. And so that case went up on appeal and of course, ultimately ended up being decided by the Supreme Court and upheld by the Supreme Court. And I was really struck that this case was going to have an enormous impact on millions of Muslims around the world, but there were almost no Muslim appellate lawyers leading the case. And there would be zero Muslim judges who would hear the case, because at the time, there were no Muslim judges on the federal bench. Now we have one, and we still have zero on the appellate bench. So, um, you kind of lack trust in the system when you know that issues that are disproportionately going to impact your community and your loved ones are being decided by people who have no connection or no nexus to it. And you really see that, um, reflected in, in the law that's produced and how they talk about those communities as well. That was something that was really demoralizing to see play out in real time. And I think you could really pick countless issues, frankly, that have the same impact on, on different communities. And, um, again, just to say all of that is really why I believe strongly that it is critical. Our, our highest courts reflect our communities.
Speaker 1 00:19:14 Now, do you think the decisions that are made in the highest court, like the Supreme Court, do you think they have an impact, impact internationally at all?
Speaker 2 00:19:25 Well, we could take the Muslim ban case, for example, that did impact people internationally, right? Because they weren't allowed to enter the country, or they were separated from their loved ones. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and you're talking about people who are trying to get in for all sorts of reasons. There's people who, uh, may have missed really important family functions. Maybe they couldn't see their loved ones who are dying. Um, other people who are trying to flee really terrible situations, um, coming in as refugees or on asylum who are just sort of as a blanket denied access to enter the country that absolutely has ripple effects.
Speaker 1 00:20:03 And so when we, I know initially you stated that really the only persons in the court is are the judges and the attorneys. Are there any other positions that would be of significance in the appellate court or specific types of lawyers within that realm?
Speaker 2 00:20:21 That's a great question. Yes. The other group I'd mentioned is law clerks. So law clerks work with judges, um, typically for a year, sometimes for two years, and they are really the right hand person of the judge. So as a clerk, you will be closely, um, helping the judge draft the decisions that the judge issues. A lot of times this varies from judge to judge, but you will sort of debate and workshop ideas with the judge, you know, reason through rulings. Obviously the judge is the one who issues the final decision. But for judges who really value diversity in the chambers, one thing that I often hear them say is, I need people with perspectives that I don't have so that I can make sure I reach the most informed decision. You know, judges are public servants and they need to reflect the public and so do the people who work with them. And so law clerks are a really critical part of the appellate process. And the other reason that it really matters to have diversity in that clerkship role is that to do appellate work, it's often a stepping stone to be a clerk first. So having that initial opportunity to be in chambers is really what sets you up for becoming an appellate lawyer and eventually appellate judge. So that's the third group. I really emphasize that having diversity matters.
Speaker 1 00:21:43 And so is that usually just typically like a two year term that, well, not term, but a two year timeframe that the clerk is there, or can it be longer than that?
Speaker 2 00:21:55 It can be one to two years. And then there's another position that's called a staff attorney, which is more of a permanent position. So clerks are typically temporary positions, um, whereas staff attorneys, you're doing similar work, but it's for a longer set of time.
Speaker 1 00:22:11 So I guess that's a good segue into the Appellate project and what you actually, you and your staff actually do there that, um, assist persons of color getting into this, what, what it sounds like it's, it's a very, like a small network, but the impact is, is huge. And so if you could just tell us more about the work you do and the programs that you offer for the lawyers, um, that are coming in.
Speaker 2 00:22:42 Yeah, I think that's an excellent characterization. Um, of the appellate bar, it is insular and elite. And historically, you know, the people who are in the appellate space tend to be male, they tend to be white, and they tend to be pulled from the same networks. Historically that's been one or two top ranked law schools. And within that, people who are already connected to networks of judges or professors who can help them get their foot in the door, who are flagging for them that appellate work exists, and here's how you pursue it. And so, as you can imagine, such a narrow pathway excludes a lot of very talented and highly qualified candidates of color, particularly those who are first generation and maybe coming outside of those narrow pathways. And so the Appellate Project, our mission is to ensure our highest courts reflect our communities. So we provide law students of color around the country with resources and training and encouragement to, to pursue appellate work.
Speaker 2 00:23:46 Our flagship program is our mentorship program. So this pairs students who are interested in appellate work with mentors in the appellate bar, typically someone who is senior, you know, who has years of experience, a broad network, the perspective of the trajectory that your career takes over time. Um, and a junior mentor, someone who typically has just finished a clerkship or is clerking and can help students with that. Because as we discuss clerking is such an important stepping stone to doing appellate work. And then every week we do programming that is designed specifically for first generation law students of color who are interested about in, in appellate work. So this could be events that demystify the different types of appellate practice, how to get there, connecting them with people in the appellate bar, um, who can help guide them on different pathways and opportunities. Um, oftentimes these students will never meet an appellate lawyer o otherwise because like we said, it's such an insular space.
Speaker 2 00:24:53 So making sure they have meaningful connections because who, you know, really matters. We share appellate job opportunities with the students. Again, they're often outside the networks where those are typically shared. So we encourage them to apply for opportunities and make sure they're aware of them. In the first instance, we do a lot of skill building and training, so making sure that their core appellate skills like legal research and writing are strong because those are foundational for doing this work. And depending on where you go to law school, you may not have access to the same level of resources as other students. We do a lot of events around clerkships, so supporting students through the clerkship process, connecting them with clerks. We have a lot of judges who come speak to our students and try, we try to form meaningful connections between the students and judges. They'll visit appellate courts and see oral argument and then meet with the judges after, um, really trying to demystify what this work entails, but also encouraging our students to see themselves in these spaces. Um, so it really is a mix of programming and we've seen incredible impact of it in just less than three years that we've been operating.
Speaker 1 00:26:07 And so I guess my question is, because it appears like in the beginning you stated that it's, it's mainly white males that are typically in this profession. Has it been difficult to kind of break that barrier to, um, to form this network of persons that are interested in changing the way that the appellate courts look? Or do they recognize that it needs to be changed and are open to what you offer and providing persons of color within this space?
Speaker 2 00:26:40 I think you're always going to have a group of people who are resistant to change and don't see lack of diversity, especially racial diversity as a problem. But I will say, uh, the response we've received has been overwhelmingly positive. I, um, the feedback I most often get is, I can't believe this didn't already exist. This is so necessary. I think people who are in the space have long recognized this is a problem and are excited to now have something they can do to change who is in appellate courts. Um, so it's been incredible to see the response. We have hundreds of volunteers from the appellate bar law clerks, attorneys and judges who volunteer to make all the programming I described possible. And, uh, it's really awesome to work with them. So, um, I think the networks that I mentioned, you know how it's traditionally a very narrow and elite group that gets access to appellate resources. We are changing that because the way our programming is structured, you have these incredible, um, and talented students who are typically outside of those networks, but now are getting access to and being seen by those same decision makers who do recruiting and hiring for the appellate bar. So we're seeing our students getting those opportunities because they're now being seen by the right people.
Speaker 1 00:28:08 Can you tell me, I guess, about how many students do you have for the, the program term and how long is that term and when does that happen?
Speaker 2 00:28:18 So we have had nearly 500 law students of color go through our program in less than three years. Our cycle runs as the school year does, meaning fall and spring semesters. So we have the application go live typically in the summer. And then, you know, we, we, uh, always receive more applications than students we can admit. Unfortunately. I think that's one of the realities of being a new nonprofit is just a constraint on resources. Um, it's something we hope to change over time as we grow, but, um, students are notified of their admittance in the fall and then the programming starts from there. So, um, if you are interested in applying or know somebody who might be, I'd highly encourage you to sign up to our listserv. The appellate project.org is our website. Uh, we're also on Twitter at appellate proj, and that way you can get the latest updates and know right when the application goes live.
Speaker 1 00:29:16 And so to apply, do you have to be like currently, um, pursuing a public work or it could be you could be any lawyer that is just interested and wants know more?
Speaker 2 00:29:30 Yeah, great question. So our program is currently open to law students of color. So you need to be enrolled in law school and you have to have an interest in this specific program. What that means is, you know, if you're just starting law school and you're applying to the program, we know that you're not gonna have appellate experience in your background. You know, you might, that's great, but a lot of students won't and that's okay too. You just need to have an interest in appellate works specifically and, um, explain in the application why that is as opposed to any of the other mentorship programs that are available. The other thing we really look for is a demonstrated commitment to race equity. One thing that makes our program very special is that it's a community of people who are dedicated to giving back and sort of lift as they rise. And that's really important to us as a value and a culture. And so those are the two main things we look for when reviewing applications is why this program and a demonstrated commitment to race equity.
Speaker 1 00:30:36 And I know you mentioned it earlier that, you know, there has been an overwhelming positive response for the program, but can you, I guess just let us know some of the impact you've seen personally?
Speaker 2 00:30:51 Absolutely. There's so many stories I hear on a weekly basis from both attorneys and our volunteers, which is pretty awesome. So, you know, on the, on the student side, we'll often hear students say that this is the most valuable thing that they did in law school. I think there is a lot to be said by the access and the programming that I described, but even more fundamentally, knowing that there is a entire community out there that sees you and believes in your potential is huge because the message these students too often receive otherwise, either implicitly or at times explicitly is you don't belong. You know, don't even bother applying to these appellate opportunities. They're so competitive. There's no one like you who's in these spaces. You know, the subtext there is, you don't belong. There's a reason for that. And so, um, it's the power of having messages saying, oh, we really need you and we see you're talented and we think you'd be great at this is really significant.
Speaker 2 00:31:53 Um, so students who have left the program with really competitive appellate opportunities, internships, fellowships, clerkships, including federal appellate clerkships, which are the most competitive to get, that's really life-changing because having that on your resume is gonna open so many doors to future appellate opportunities throughout your career. And, uh, it also means that those employers who are hiring you are now going to come back to your school or other similar networks to look for candidates that they might not have considered before. So on the employer and volunteer side, what we're seeing is a culture shift happening where folks are really examining the narrow criteria that they've typically used when doing recruiting and hiring and realizing, hey, we're missing out on a lot of talent and maybe we should think more holistically about what it is that we need when we're hiring for these positions and where we look for them.
Speaker 1 00:32:51 Oh, that's great because I didn't even think about that part about how it is, uh, exposing not only the students, but the courts themselves and, and making them recognize that, okay, we need to start diversifying who we allow in these spaces.
Speaker 2 00:33:10 Yeah, and just to add, you know, we've seen some of our volunteers start similar programs that are based in their specific geographic region, so really targeting local students and replicating our program on that local basis, which is amazing. You know, that's, that's really the goal is take what you learn and apply it and continue the ripple effects, um, even more broadly than what we're able to do.
Speaker 1 00:33:36 And so the program lasts for, I'm sorry, for a semester?
Speaker 2 00:33:42 Yeah, so it's the school year basically, so year it starts in, um, the fall and ends up at the end of spring.
Speaker 1 00:33:49 And so once that's completed, are there any resources after the they've completed the program? Is there still like some kind of continuing connection that you all have?
Speaker 2 00:34:01 Yeah, what's been great is that, um, we have been able to develop resources and programming for our alums, and we hope to continue growing those resources as our own capacity increases. But the idea is that you go through the program and you get these targeted mentorship and programming, but that you become part of a community that's there with you throughout your career. And so, um, that's one benefit that hopefully stays with you and you continue to cultivate and grow. Um, but as an alum there are specific benefits that you receive, such as programming and the events I mentioned, we often open up to our alums this year. We also piloted a program where our alums received additional mentors if they were interested in it. So we're really excited to continue supporting our alums as they become early stage professionals and as they, uh, grow in their career.
Speaker 1 00:34:55 Now we, we've been talking about the mentorship program, but I did see on your website that under programs there was something else called the incubator. Is that, um, something you're currently offering at this moment?
Speaker 2 00:35:08 So the incubator is our second program and we're develop, it's in development and the idea there is to have a targeted program that is ess essentially a summer fellowship program. So a small cohort of students will receive appellate training from us and then be placed in positions with appellate employers for the summer. So they'll get really hands-on work in, uh, working on appellate issues at places where this law is practiced. So they're, they get the hands-on experience, they get to grow their networks, and they also get our resources that I've, I've described previously. So we're really excited about it.
Speaker 1 00:35:51 And so that would be kind of like a transition from the mentorship to the incubator, or could they be separate from each other?
Speaker 2 00:35:59 Exactly. They're two separate programs.
Speaker 1 00:36:02 Okay. Java, I know our time is coming to a close, but before we end it, I just wanted to know, are there ways that the community can help support your efforts and your program going forward? I know, uh, a little while ago I saw that you were seeking board members and you mentioned volunteers and there's also contribution. So is there, how, how can we continue to support this work, this important work?
Speaker 2 00:36:29 Thank you so much. Yeah, I think, um, helping spread the word, first and foremost, we're printing new organizations. So if there are people, you know, um, for example law students of color who you think might be interested, please encourage them to sign up to our listserv and consider applying for the next cycle of the mentorship program. If, you know, law school professionals, um, encouraging them to share it with students and, and people at their law school or appellate attorneys or judges who might be interested in getting involved, we'd love to connect with them and hear from them. A lot of this work has been really grassroots so far and, and spread through word of mouth, so we're really grateful for that. Um, the other thing I'd say is, um, we are a 5 0 1 C three and we rely on donations and the generosity of the community to make all of this programming possible. So if you are able to give, we really appreciate the support and it helps us make possible the programming that we've discussed and, um, support these amazing students as they begin their journey as appellate professionals.
Speaker 1 00:37:37 Okay. Well thank you. And I'll definitely put that on the website as well so people can know where to look for you. And I just personally wanna thank you for first and foremost agreeing to be on the podcast. There was like no hesitation from you for doing that. And also I think I learned a lot, um, in this short span of time and it makes me intrigued about learning more about appellate courts and, and, and actually getting more involved on it. So I appreciate you for that as well.
Speaker 2 00:38:07 Thank you so much. I, I am honored and I really appreciate the invitation to be here and speak with you and everybody about the work we're doing. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 00:38:17 Thank you for tuning into this episode of On The Square, real Talk on Race and Islam in the Americas, a special podcast series brought to you by Salo Square and the Medent. Thanks again to our guest, GVA Khan. You can find information about what we discussed, including
Speaker 3 00:38:35 Links and more by visiting salo square.com/on the square or the mayan.com/podcast. Our theme music is provided by a fanatic on beats.
